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Old 11-27-2009, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Denonite View Post
When you have a properly level matched test (removes the effects of sound processing) between $20,000 amps vs. a $100.00 amp and golden ears (audiophiles who claim they can hear better than most others) can't pick which one is playing with their choice of music and speakers...that's something to think about.
No need to have golden ears, I and many others are content with theirs and can hear differences. And differences could be subtle and sometimes could not be heard right away, but if you know what your system sounds like, and then you put another amp in, and drive around for a day or two, you start to realize whether the sound is better or worse. Ears dont only hear loud differences, but also sense depth as well, and that may take a day or two to hear if its too subtle.

Originally Posted by RomanticMoments View Post
Don't attack me. There is no point, which is exactly what I'm sarcastically implying. This thread has turned into a processor/amp/I'm-right-you're-wrong war. If that's where it's going to go, move and rename the thread. What does anything about processors and amps have to do with a McIntosh MX406??!??!? And I don't want to hear examples of how they are, because I could start talking about the quality of RCA's and start thatwar. Just because they connect to the deck doesn't mean we need to argue about other components. We're way off track here, hence why I made the sticker comment.... Sorry that went over your head
You threw more wood into fire, and thats not cool, your sarcastic comments were not appreciated and noone found them funny. Dukk started this thing by adding agression to his opinion and you did not help the cause. We take pride in this forum being more polite than the rest. You can try to be helpful.

Originally Posted by RomanticMoments View Post

The deck needs to be able to produce a clean signal to start with. It is the heart of the system, not an amp or processor. The ONLY fuction of a processor in a PROPERLY installed system is to compensate for peaks and valleys in the frequency range created by the vehicle itself. This can be time correction, or simple adjustments to specific frequencies that aren't accurately being percieved. An amps function is as simple as it's name.... To amplify the sound, aka make it LOUD! All of the components can alter the sound. Rant over. Peace
Well, deck sometimes gets hooked up via optical to the processor, and then processor has more heart than you think, and it helps a lot especially with DVD decks that have poor DAC's as they cheap out on that to pursue DVD portion on the player, eg hooking up Alpine 701 to an Alpine DVD player makes a huge difference, more open and clear sound by far.

"Amp just amps the sound" is an old argument and people who wish to be on that side of the fence throw it in, but it makes no sense to me, cause not just any amp can have a perfect design to do a perfect job. Cheaper amps use inferior parts and build quality is lower, so they dont do a good job amping the sound, but rather screw everything up and introduce undesirable effects while at it. As you say yourself, any component can alter the sound, so why are we even arguing, you just proved yourself and us correct, that amps do sound different. One of the easiest sounds to tell apart is bright or laidback, as well as tiny or open. Noise level is another one, and so is the grip on speakers. Amp manufacturers make up their specs, and a lot of times a more expensive but lower rated amp blows away the cheap stuff on every level, whether it's power, noise, or separation.

Last edited by Sasha; 11-27-2009 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jstoner22 View Post
man are we suckers as consumers then, if this really is the case then alot of us really need to reevaluate why we buy the amps that we do.
is there any studies that can actually be shown on this either way?
or is it all just talk from both points of view?
that would resolve the issue alot quicker in my mind anyways.

.....and everyone tone it down a little, why get hostile over online opinions?
to answer your question; yes there have been a multitude of ABX tests done to find out if one amp is distinguishable from another in a controlled test environment (Scientific tests using proper methods and evaluating the amplifier itself by isolating that portion of the component...meaning they level match the amps to prevent one amp from delivering more output than another with the same input..if this was not done it would be easy for one manufacturer to add an eq circuit in the amp to boost a certain freq band and have it sound brighter or softer...which would be easy to detect. Remember, the whole point of these tests is to educate consumers as to what they are paying for. If you pay 5Gs for an amp that sounds the same as one for 300.00 at the same power levels, maybe you'd think twice about buying it. Now that 5G amp may sound different to you because it has sound processing circuitry built in, but that's not what an amp is supposed to do. They are supposed to be transparent...meaning true to the source...they are only supposed to amplify. If I knew all I needed was a relatively cheap eq circuit to reproduce the same sound as the 5G amp, maybe I'd do that and save 4600.00. All these tests are saying is that the amplifier portion is undetectable in blind tests...so far...maybe someone will be able to beat the test one day and that will change things.) Since you're unfamiliar with this subject, google Richard clark amp challenge and read through the process. Very few people actually do, and assume that RC is saying all amps (the whole package in the heat sink) sound identical, or that one should not purchase a particular brand or model due to it's price...that's incorrect. He's simply giving you information about the amplifier portion itself...and he gives many reasons why you may or should buy a certain brand for reasons other than sound quality.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:42 PM
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Perhaps folks can stop reading online bs, and start doing the tests themselves, and then offer opinions. A lot of this amps are all the same comes from trolling the web and not actual personal experiences and that just adds more bs. Those who have Vrx's, Billets, SE's, DLS's, and many other fine amps do not suddenly sell their amps and get cheap stuff, because they did not start with those amps, but rather worked their way towards them going through other amps and not getting that unique sound that makes them melt in the car seat. I only know one guy that actually sold his Vrx's and got something cheaper, and he is all over the place with his stance, he goes back and forth with it depending on weather, and now he got DLS RA's recently, but why bother and waste time if it all is the same. I dont whether to feel bad for myself or others who cant hear it, cause I may be forever damned to buy expensive stuff, and those who cant a difference can spend their money elsewhere. Well, it makes no difference, I am happy with my expensive taste at every level of my lifestyle, and if I can afford it I will get it. I try to surround myself with luxury and love life, and even like some people may say you only love it cause its expensive, so be it, whatever turns my crank, and if that is the only thing I'd be getting, I'd still be happy.

Bottom line is there is no need to come across arrogant, and go over your post before you do post, so that you at least try to be polite, instead of "barfing" on something another user had said. With grain of salt - yes, aggression - no. And that is what makes this forum the best, well, most of the time.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:57 PM
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#1. I apologize for the sarcasm, figured that a sense of humour was welcome. The only problem I had was that, even as of right now, we are way off topic. This thread should be retitled. You speak for everyone when you say that "we take pride..." but yet I retaliated strictly based on the unpolite response I got

#2. Did you READ my post? Of course amps change the sound. But the point I was TRYING to make was that everything need to work together. You can't simply buy one component, no matter how high end it is, and expect the system to sound better by a large margin, as suggested earlier in this processor war. If you have a low quality portion of the system whether its the amp or deck, a processor is a.) a bandaid and b.) most likely not going to get the desired result. I have a difficult time thinking that an MX406 is going to produce poor quality sound.... 0.004% Signal to noise ratio? The deck doesn't need a processor, but if the listener feels that there are unnatural peaks and valleys in the frequency range due to the listening environment, a processor would allow for those adjustments. The perception I had reading this thread was that you need a processor, it sounds way better. That is not true for one, and for two, if someone has this deck, a processor, a top notch amp, and stock speakers, it's still going to sound like shat. Following the mantra that "you need a processor" for members that aren't seasoned in car A/V is going to lead to wasted cash. Moral of the story is to buy smart, and have your equipment installed by a reputable shop if you aren't able to do it yourself

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Old 11-27-2009, 02:11 PM
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Sooooo, like the thread's title: "Look at this classic deck!"

http://www.swaqvalley.com/images/1987Supra/IMAGE003.jpg

Now THAT'S classic! LOL
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:22 PM
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thats richard clark challenge is the first bit of information that has been thrown around on here that actually seems to have any kind of substance behind it other than personal opinion.
i'm still not agreeing either way, because i will not be fully convinced until i hear my own setup with multiple amps.
anyone have input for the other side?

....listening to what people say and reading that article, it sound as if sonic signatures shouldn't necassarily be attributed to the amp itself, but rather its ability to integrate with your system and how it will perform in your cars environment.





....and yes that is one classic deck! lol
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:31 PM
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The amps job is to amp. That's it. It's job is not to change the sound. Now, that's not to say that they don't change the sound, because they do. The MOSFET system was designed to eliminate noise in the amplification process, hence why they are used for audio. Let's say amp #1 is a Ford Fiesta. It takes you where you need to go much faster than walking. Now we have amp #2, a Ferrari... Much faster, much nicer, but still does the EXACT same job. Point a to point b. Problem with sports cars, much like amps, there are TONS of good and bad, at varying prices and varying performances. It is, suffice it to say, trail by error. Everyone hears their own way
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
Car audio is a lot like transportation, Dukk, some people use a car, some take a bus, and then there are some who walk, and that's you, Dukk.
lol, you talk about being polite and then resort to a personal attack?

Perhaps one could opine that you are lead by the nose....

Here's a question - Who here has actually participated in an ABX test of amplifiers? Not hooking up amps and then "drive around for a day or two, you start to realize whether the sound is better or worse" but right now, 1, 2, X testing? If amps are DRASTICALLY different as some believe, then it should be simple to tell.

See I used to be a follower. I spewed all that septage about this amp this and that amp that. Then I did the testing. I was confident. I failed - as did everyone else that day. NOW who forms opinion from online BS?

Yet, no one has been able to yet... Address that Sasha - why, out of all the people tested over the last 20+ years in ABX comparisons of amplifiers has not one person ever been able to consistently tell the difference between any two amps? I'm waiting, make it good..

Oh - and where's the chart?
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:44 PM
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Dukk, what exactly are you suggesting gets tested? What tests did you run? Power output? Because like I mentioned, everyone has different tastes in what is "good" sound, so I'm curious to know what you tested. I'm not referring to how much an amplifier can amplify before it clips, but when your test amps are running clean sound, how are you determining which amp sounds "better"? Did you just run sweeps and see how flat the response was? Because if that's the case, there are huge variances in amps. Hell, read a couple issues of Performance Auto And Sound and you can see that. Not one amp will produce the exact same response time and time again, even individual amps vary, you need to test them a multitude of times to get a definitive result. Even two amps of the same model and year can produce not only different outputs but also different frequency responses
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:47 PM
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I bet if I invited DUKK to a listening session with a pair of brystons and $75K speakers, he would hear the difference!
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