don't go out and buy another sub. having a powerful great sub has nothing to do with your issues at all. its not "too much sub" for you.

go to a shop, get it looked and and end your confusion. you will spend less than buying a new sub and keep the quality one.

 

^^x2 you need to have an expert look at this before spending money wildly...subs are subs, there's no magic there (except when they're totally dialed in and playing some sweet bass), it's just a big speaker that reacts to voltage changes. Obviously, there's some electrical/mechanical issue that you're not experienced enough at this point to correct and need the help of a pro that can actually touch the equipment unlike all of us on here.

 

X3, there is something going on there that you are missing.

 

Try an Xtant X1001 rated @ 1000 but thats just very underrated if you get an old school one at least apparently the newer stuff isnt as good as the old stuff, i know the Xtant i have for sale was powering my 2 Focal 33k 13" subs also that im selling make sure you get a quality amp not one that just claims some numbers but im sure you already know that.

 

So I got another sub. I know, I know...but I think SQMonster's point was a good one: the sub was a constant and it might help to get it out of the equation. I figured something more mundane on the power requirements front would at least give me an idea of whether I have any capability of driving anything, never mind a Type X.

Not sure that I do.

I got a Pioneer TS-W308D4 with dual 4-Ohm coils. It's rated for 400 watts RMS (50-400 is what the specs actually say), so it's a lot more real-world. Seems like a decent sub, and inasmuch as I've been able to get anything out of it, it doesn't sound half bad. A guy over in Bath apparently picked up a skid full of returns and new old stock items from Best Buy and he's trying to unload it. The sub is still current and listed at $180 at FS and BB, and I got it for 48 bucks. Like I said, seems like a decent sub.

Problem is, the Visonik isn't driving it worth crap either. Same thing, going into protection at anything over moderate volume and practically red hot after just a few minutes. So can we conclude that the Visonik has some serious problems as well? And that I haven't been able to drive my Type X because I have yet to hook it up to an amp that actually works? That the Phoenix Gold was on its last legs when I picked it up and crapped out on me just 2 hours in; and that the Visonik is having some serious problems as well? Sure doesn't seem to be working. Pretty sure the kid will take it back--I mean, it's failing to drive 2 different subs in any remotely satisfactory way. I should probably go that route, scrabble as much cash together as possible, and keep looking for an amp. Only make sure the guy lets me hook it up and be sure it's working before handing over any cash.

Thing is, how many other variables have I not changed now? Just my head unit and wiring. I'm pretty sure the wiring's OK: 4 gauge welding cable from Princess Auto coming off the battery through the firewall; two separate runs, one for the sub amp and one for everything else I'm planning (two more amps for front and rear speakers and maybe a crossover or two). The sub run has an 80-amp fuse 6 inches from the battery. The cable is maybe 10-11 feet long and goes straight into the amp. Ground cable is also 4-gauge and about 14 iinches long. It ends in a ring terminal and is grounded by the bolt that holds in the rear seat cushion. I ground away all the paint and put a steel washer between the terminal and the car body. Remote turn-on is hooked up to the blue/white lead coming out of the head unit. All the connections are secure, and I seem to have good current flow: 14.3 volts at the amp terminals. I re-did and checked all the sub connections when I changed it out: positive lead going to the positive terminal of one coil, with a jumper to the positive terminal on the other coil. Same on the negative side. I did my big 3 with 4-gauge: One run of cable from the battery negative terminal to the block (about 14 inches), one to the car body (8 inches) and one from the battery positive terminal to the positive terminal on the alternator (maybe 20 inches). I can post pics of all my wiring if you think it would help.

That would leave the head unit. Any chance there's something amiss with the signals coming out of the pre-out leads? I do have another deck I can swap it out for, which would either eliminate or confirm about the only other possibility.

So here's what I think I'll try next: I still have my Cadence 4-channel amp, which is 75 watts per channel at 4 Ohms, 150 at 2, and I can bridge 2 channels to get 300 watts at 4 Ohms. However it's only stable down to 4 Ohms bridged, and the sub is wired for 2. So how about I bridge 2 channels to drive one coil of the sub, and bridge the other 2 to drive the other coil? That way each coil would present a 4 Ohm load, and each would be getting 300 watts--600 total. If it works with the Pioneer sub, I can try the same thing with the Type X. Surely 600 watts (300 per coil) should be enough to drive the X, if the amp's working right.

If it still doesn't work, I have no idea what to do next. Yeah, I know, take it to a shop. That's about the last thing I want to do. I'm already into this foolishness for enough money that my wife doesn't know about, and trying to face up to the possibility that I've pissed away 150 bucks on a classic old-school sub amp that doesn't work (and from what I've been able to find out about Phoenix Gold amps--at least this one--may not be fixable)...and possibly another 180 on a honkin' big sub that is either broken as well or I'll never be able to drive.

And speaking of the Type X, can anyone tell me exactly how to check it out properly? How do I test the coils? I did the press test and it seems fine--no scraping sounds. If somebody can tell me how to establish that it's in good working order that will at least be one other thing ruled out (and a big relief).

I know, all this keyboard tapping is no substitute for having somebody who knows more than me (that would be a lot of people) actually get their hands on it and check things out. Couldn't help noticing that at least one of you guys is just a little over an hour away. Feel like a road trip at all? Nice back roads down through Tweed and Marlbank to lovely Selby--Garden Spot of the Western World. Or maybe one of you fine hosers from the Kingston or Belleville areas might feel like an afternoon out. There'll be beer and pizza and maybe a little taste of the sweet sweet hamanahamanahamanahamana for yer trouble. Maybe I can get the wife to make a flan.

I'm just sayin'...

So that's where things stand. I've changed everything but my head unit, and I'm still basically boringly bassless. Baseless, too, some would say--but we'll leave my business practices out of this.

Anybody got anything? Anybody? Anything??

 

to check coils, use your multimeter. if it has a setting for ohms, use that. check each voice coil by connecting the + to your red lead, and - to your black lead on the multimeter. each coil should read around 2.2-ish or 4.3-ish depending on if you have 4 ohm or 2 ohm coils. if one reads 2.4 and the other reads 0.7, or nothing at all, you've got a problem. both coils should be within .2 or less of each other..

GO TO A SHOP!!!!! any repitable shop would be happy to help you out for free.....it would take 5 mins to figure out your issue if you are there with your car. At the same time, it soulds like you got alot of crappy amps kicking around. if the sub is good and the deck is good, BUY A NEW AMP, and quit pissing your money away buying more used broken amps, or low wattage amps. not to mention all the time you spent trying to figure out your issues yourself. take it to a show, swallow your pride, tell them what is up and get on with it. the pg's that are still around, do have some issues, and can be fixed by the right people. With that being said, they hold their value too and you could easily make some profit on it fixing it and selling it to an audiophile. Then you can get a new, more efficiant amp, more suited to your needs, and that COMES WITH A WARRANTY, so you don't have to deal with this issue again.

 

So I got another amp--an Alpine M1000, and if that's not the right one for the Type X I can't imagine what is. Same thing.

Can't help but thinking the problem has to be in my head unit. It's the only variable I haven't changed. I'll be swapping it out for one of my other ones this afternoon and hopefully that will solve things.

Anybody aware of how a head unit could go wrong so as to cause these problems? Any ideas on how to check the output voltage of the head unit?

 

So I swapped out the head unit. Put in the Alpine 7821 I got for 10 bucks hoping the sleeve would fit the 9815 I'm waiting for a wiring harness for (it does, like a glove--and the sleeve from my old Kenwood seems to fit just fine on the 7821. This is about the only thing that's gone right so far). I re-did all the wiring and bypassed the car's wiring harness completely. The power cable is connected directly to the battery, the ground to a spot in the back of the car about 3 inches from where the amps are grounded (I ground away the paint to fresh bare metal), the acc. cable goes to the right port on the car's fuse panel, and the remote turn-on cable is connected to the two amps. These four connections are the only ones going to the head unit and I did them all myself, so I think they're OK.

Same thing is happening. Not as bad, as in I can get slightly more volume before the amp goes into protect, but basically the same: no real volume, amp heats up and goes into protect.

Keep in mind that I'm still using the Visonik amp and the Pioneer sub. If I'm going to take a chance on damaging anything else just by simply hooking it up and trying to use it I'd rather it not be the Alpine gear. I did have the M1000 hooked up for a few minutes and it was doing the same thing. At this point I'm just trying to get things working with a relatively mundane sub and amp combination.

And I'm not sure I agree with the implication that I've been buying cheap, crappy, underpowered and broken used amps. The Phoenix Gold I would have thought should have been a good piece. It wasn't that cheap and seemed to be working fine when I bought it from the guy. The Visonik, cheap, yes, but according to its specs not underpowered--at least when it comes to driving the Pioneer sub. And the Alpine M1000 is 4 months old and still under warranty. Surely you can't find fault with that choice.

I've checked the impedance on the Pioneer's coils and they seem to be OK. Voltage at the amp seems to be OK--with the car running it's a more-or-less steady 14-14.3 volts with the occasional alarming dip down to 8 or 10 for a few seconds at a time here and there. With the car turned of it's a reasonably steady 12 volts or so. The voltage from the head unit to the amp should be 2 volts. If somebody can tell me how to check that I will do so.

A friend of mine is now suggesting I need a capacitor. Most of what I've been able to find on the internet says that nobody really needs a capacitor (and of course with the internet being what it is, a few indications that yes I do). Even so, wouldn't a cap just steady the voltage at the 14-plusish at which things don't seem to be working? Are there not lots of people out there running relatively modest sub/amp combinations without a cap? And so far none of you folks has suggested that a cap is necessary.

The only things I haven't changed now are my power cable, the RCA cable going from the head unit to the amp, and my fuse holder I guess.

The only other thing I can think of to try is running the sub signal through one of my crossovers. One of them can apparently output up to 8 volts. Shouldn't it act more or less like a line driver and boost the voltage going from the head unit to the amp? And if the problem is insufficient voltage from the head unit should this not help?

And to make matters worse it would appear that one of my a/d/s 300i speakers is now toast. Wife got back the other night and it sounds like one of the woofer coils has let go. Great. I love those speakers. They're the reason I got started with all this in the first place.

I'm really starting to think that all this has been a huge mistake. Other people seem to be able to put audio equipment in their cars and get it to work--why not me?

I'm just finding the whole thing very frustrating and saddening. Yeah I know, take it to a shop--but aren't they going to check all the same things I've already checked? I mean there are just so many variables here, aren't there? And I think I've investigated every one I can think of, or that you guys (girls, too, if that's the case) have suggested.

I've really just about had it.

 

the m1000 is a decent choice. the visonik- companies lie about specs, and the phoenix, although a decent amp, it was clearly at the end of its life.

if you really have checked every variable, the only leaves system settings, which is up to the user.

i still really think you should take it to a shop. you are needlessly frustrating yourself and festering an increasing dislike for car audio.

a cap is not your issue. you may be able to benifit from one if you are a casual listener, but if you like your bass, probably not.
regardless, the lack of one is not whats causing your issues.


personally i think your problems are power based and user settings.

i'm suprised your car even stays runnign if it drops down to 8Volts.
and even if your car does not cut off, your amps will.
if you are dropping below 12 thats a clear indication your electrical CANNOT keep up.


have you done your big three?
if you have, and the rest of your wiring is fine. something is up with your alternator.
your batteries are steady at 12v when the car is off (no alternator power). so they would appear to be fine at the moment.

put in the m1000, keep your type x, take it to a shop, have them problem solve and let them know of your power issues and symptoms.

 

Thanks for your post. I really do appreciate it, and I want to make clear if I haven't already that my growing frustration is with car audio devices--not with car audio people.

I should also make clear that the behaviour I have described has been pretty much the same with all three amps, including the PG before it apparently self-destructed, and the M1000 in the few minutes I had it hooked up before I decided not to tempt fate. As for the M1000, there's no way I'm going to put it back in (or the Type X) until I get this sorted out and know that I can at least make a mediocre system work. I mean, not much point in staying upstairs during a tornado just because the view is better. Or putting your best players on the field during an earthquake...or something equally non-witty. Yeah, I know--world's worst metaphor contest is next site over. Sorry. It's late. Rough day. I'm tired and frustrated.

So then, system settings: not much to say about that. Gain all the way down is about the only way any amp will work at all; low-pass filter set at, I don't know, 80 or 100 Hz--it's not like they put little markings on those dials to make it easy (possible?) to really know where it's at--maybe a third of the way up, I guess; no bass boost, no nuthin' like that; tone controls all flat...just as basic as can be, I guess.

As for the voltage drops, car keeps running, stereo keeps playing (such as it does)...they don't seem to have any effect on anything at all as far as I can tell. No stumbles, no drop in volume (such as there is), nothing to indicate anything is amiss other than the reading on the meter (the longest voltage drop I saw was maybe 3 or 4 seconds). And I may have mentioned this before, but I will again--the anomalous behaviour of the amps is apparent whether the car is running or not. If there was a problem with the alternator, shouldn't they work better (if not ideally or for long) running on just the battery? Maybe I'm not checking the voltage right: put the red probe on the power terminal and the black one on the ground terminal (or the car body) and watch the meter. Have I got that right? Seriously, I'm asking.

Actually, come to think of it, the alternator was just replaced in January. Crapped out the day after I got the car. So far the only major thing (touch wood) to do so. Not that that's a definitive indication it's not the problem...I'm just sayin'.

"Batteries". You say it like I should have more than one. Sorry but there is just the one, stock and admittedly pretty meagre. It's really tiny and says something on it about must be charged by sometime in 2006. Sure, I'd like a better one--but the car started fine all winter. In fact, all the electrics on the car seem to work fine, and until I started all this the crappy Kenwood driving the 4 crappy Pioneer speakers that came with the car didn't sound half bad--well, I mean, at least they worked. Even after I put the a/d/s's (damn!) in the back everything still worked fine. The battery issue seems to be just as divisive as the capacitor issue. For every person on the net saying I should go one way, there's another saying the opposite. No disrespect, but who am I supposed to believe? You can't all be right.

And yes I did do the big 3--in 4-gauge.

Sorry to seem pissy, but I am, a little. I hear kids driving by the house all the time with their subs pumping away, and I'm pretty sure they don't all have multiple batteries and capacitors and what-all. What they do have is a car stereo probably way more modest than what I'm trying to get up and running--but at least it seems to work. I'd like a bit of that in my life.

Thanks once again, and I promise not to give up on car audio if you all don't give up on me.