SQ improvement with ARC SE Amps
09-30-2010, 06:19 AM
#51
Speaking of bananas i guess all these amp companys that offer upgrades to there opamps and all other kinds of internal compenents are just milking customers even further? I mean if swapping amps wont make a difference then by the same logic swapping some internals around in the same amp must be an even bigger waste of money.
I have seen posts by engeneers that offer those upgrades. The engeneer behind that amp design, he will tell you he doesn't think those "upgrades" do anything but that he offers them because customers want it.
09-30-2010, 06:57 AM
#52
I respect AAAAAAA's opinion. It's not the first time a person has said one piece of electronics is no different than another. I don't believe thAt more expensive means better or less expensive is poorer in quality. A well engineered product is well engineered product. And I personally have no issue with science or gaining knowledge by or through science. I simply don't put all my "faith" in to one arena.
For the record, I have done A/B testing. It's actually how I chose some of my gear. The tests are done blind ( in my case in the dark, which is how I often listen to music). You don't think I came to my conclusions on a whim do you?
I guess I have a question for you. Do all amplifiers, or other electronic devices, produce the exact same sound if connected to the same speakers in the same listening room? Will tonality change? Will staging change?Please explain.
I hope this discussion continues. It's quite fun to discuss this stuff with others who enjoy it.
For the record, I have done A/B testing. It's actually how I chose some of my gear. The tests are done blind ( in my case in the dark, which is how I often listen to music). You don't think I came to my conclusions on a whim do you?
I guess I have a question for you. Do all amplifiers, or other electronic devices, produce the exact same sound if connected to the same speakers in the same listening room? Will tonality change? Will staging change?Please explain.
I hope this discussion continues. It's quite fun to discuss this stuff with others who enjoy it.
heheTo the human ear yes, they should sound the same as long as they are level matched (within both amps comfort zone IE you can't have a 10watt amp trying to play as loudly as the loudest a 100amp can) and are playing within there FR range. But I beleive we could measure differences with sensitive enough equipement.
I will add that I am sure in some cases we could say they don't sound the same for 2 reasons.
Noise floor, that's a dead give a away of course.
Built in EQ. If an amp has a built in EQ (base boost/trebble) and that it can't be totally bi-passed then of course that could be detectible so it would have to be compensated for.
09-30-2010, 01:51 PM
#53
500 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 730
Don't confuse what sounds best to someone and how accurate something is to the original source.
-SQ is subjective
-How accurate something is to the original is something we can quantify and this is the opposite of something that is subjective.
What you quoted literally means nothing.
Music, is simply sounds just like any other non musical sounds we hear every day, there is nothing special about a musical sound to any other sound.
Music: Easily measurable\recordable\reproducible sound, just like any other sound.
Emotions: Any strong feeling felt from any stimulus... amongst the huge list of stimulus is indeed sound.
Don't be confused by these 2 separate things.
-SQ is subjective
-How accurate something is to the original is something we can quantify and this is the opposite of something that is subjective.
What you quoted literally means nothing.
Music, is simply sounds just like any other non musical sounds we hear every day, there is nothing special about a musical sound to any other sound.
Music: Easily measurable\recordable\reproducible sound, just like any other sound.
Emotions: Any strong feeling felt from any stimulus... amongst the huge list of stimulus is indeed sound.
Don't be confused by these 2 separate things.
09-30-2010, 03:20 PM
#54
Goalie Man
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,412
who said this at harmen??? hog wash.. changing out the speakers is probabley the ONLY way to change your sound without changing anything eles... go ahead change amps.. change deck change your underwear, it wont matter, but change your speakers and wham.. massive difference.... why.. glad you asked you dumb fu#$!! lol!! just rollin there... sorry..... for the most part most decks will sound the same, hold on i said for the most part. and taking into concideration output voltage... also with amps really very minimal change except output.. but speakers man the philosophy in speaker design and materials is as vast as dukks openmindedness......lol.... serious now. take a mb quart qm25hc tweeter and place it in your system, now rip it out and place in a nice pioneer prs 101.. ahhh much better, ok take that out and place in a hiquphon ow11 and very very nice... probably the best sounding tweeter in the world you say.. CORRECT!! and this is just with tweeters, now due the same with the mids, take out those hat, and replace with pioneer ts 101 prs 4 inch mids,,, then try the jvc 4 inch mids.... get my point... due this test now with amps.. listen to you jl remove and place in arc, remove then place in pioneer prs a900 amps, very very minimal difference. same with decks...
09-30-2010, 03:34 PM
#55
ALL AMPS DO NOT sound the same - regardless of the amp setup.
09-30-2010, 04:46 PM
#57
I think people are taking this in the wrong way. This thread is really just about different view points. And part of the problem is that we may not be comparing apples to apples here. Richard Clark had a theory that a watt is a watt, I'm not sure if he ever actually meant all amplifiers are the same. He was challenged but never actually held up his part of the bargain, so the debate continues.
Here is my two cents. A watt is a watt. I don't refute that. It makes sense. But with that said I don't think all electronics are built to the same standard. And some are designed with their own sound characteristics. Some will call this warmth, and other distortion. Either way, they (the engineers) are making the amplifier "sound" the way they want. In some cases, it may be possible to reproduce this "warmth" via processing, but not always and not everyone has the ear to do it.
The other aspect that should be looked at is the design of the amplifier itself. Is it possible that a circuit design can be so bad that it manipulates the signal? Most of the differences I hear in my car are stage related. Could this not simply be less cross talk within the amplifier? I hope your all starting to see my point of view?
Here is my two cents. A watt is a watt. I don't refute that. It makes sense. But with that said I don't think all electronics are built to the same standard. And some are designed with their own sound characteristics. Some will call this warmth, and other distortion. Either way, they (the engineers) are making the amplifier "sound" the way they want. In some cases, it may be possible to reproduce this "warmth" via processing, but not always and not everyone has the ear to do it.
The other aspect that should be looked at is the design of the amplifier itself. Is it possible that a circuit design can be so bad that it manipulates the signal? Most of the differences I hear in my car are stage related. Could this not simply be less cross talk within the amplifier? I hope your all starting to see my point of view?
09-30-2010, 04:50 PM
#58
If I am correct, it was not exactly given proper context in the earlier posting.
If I'm wrong... well, that won't be the first time! LOL!
09-30-2010, 05:01 PM
#59
Goalie Man
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,412
well if you can hear a sonic difference from amp to amp then there has to be voltage, or eq differences within the amps themselves..but our point is that if and amp is just amplifing they will all sound the same.. period.. now since no two amps are perfectly linear, thats where i feel you can get some, albiet very minimal, sonic characteristics.. but they are small and not worth the extra expense if your system is already very nice sounding. so yes, paul myself and every other engineer on the planet, are correct in saying all amps, when only amplifing, sound the same. but i due believe in subtle sonic differences within the amp community.
09-30-2010, 05:12 PM
#60
Seems to be a lot of confusion with RC's challenge so here it is:
THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES {revised May 28 , 2005}
By Richard Clark
There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is true in nearly every
known specification, including power, noise, distortion, etc. My experience has led me to believe that even though these differences can be easily measured,
hearing those differences may not be so easy. Given the relatively small magnitude of performance differences, there is a giant step between amplifier
performance and our ability to hear performance differences.
It is claimed by designers, manufacturers and especially salespersons that differences in amplifiers are clearly audible. Reasons include "obvious"
advantages of one type of circuit topology over another. For example, it is claimed that certain designs have a smoother midrange response whereas other
amplifiers exhibit tighter bass. Tube fanatics claim that tube amplifiers have that "warm" sound we all need in our systems.
Such descriptive terms are certainly subject to personal interpretation. It is not my intention to determine if one particular amplifier is better than another
amplifier. Differences in the quality of the discrete components and constructions are more appropriate for settling the issue of "good - better - best." The sole
purpose of my amplifier challenge is to determine if the differences in amplifiers are audible.
What differences are Audible?
I believe the perceived differences in amplifiers are all due to various factors that can be explained with basic physics and elementary psycho-acoustics. For
instance, if two amplifiers are not carefully matched in volume, and one amp is slightly louder than the other, then it would be a simple matter to detect such a
difference. In such an example it is important to understand that it is not the circuit topology, quality of the component, design excellence, or superb marketing
and packaging that caused the noticeable difference - it was an error in the test setup! It is my present belief that as long as a modern amplifier is operated
within its linear range (below overload), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear.
Comparing Amps
The idea here is for a test subject to scientifically demonstrate his/her ability to hear differences in amplifiers. It is our job to carefully match the amps so
that we are comparing "apples to apples" instead of "oranges to frogs." This means that we sure wouldn't want to compare one amplifier that had + 12 dB of
high frequency boost against another amplifier that was adjusted for + 12 dB of bass boost. Such a test would be easy to pass - even on identical amplifiers
with consecutive serial numbers.
For our comparison test, we aren't concerned with which amplifier sounds best to the test subject. We only require that the listener be able to identify each
amplifier when it is powering the speakers. Since many folks seem to believe that amplifiers have some kind of distinctive sonic character, this test should be
easy to pass. Right? After all, we're talking about comparing those harsh sounding, high distortion, squeaky "widget As" to those warm sounding, smooth, bass
hog "widget Bs."
Now pay particular attention to the following sections. Since we're looking for differences in amplifiers, and we already know that those differences are
probably going to be very, very small, it is important that the parameters under our control be carefully adjusted so as to be equal as possible. This means that
we must be cognizant of differences we might unknowingly introduce between amp A and amp B. They must be adjusted as identical as possible. We already
mentioned the importance of volume. The same goes for the L and R balance. It sure would be easy to choose an amplifier that exhibited left side bias over a
balanced amp. Right?
Well, in order to keep this amplifier comparison test fair, there are a few other parameters that must be considered. I'll list them all in the following section.
Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions
1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05 dB.
2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -)
3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above.
4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.
5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those features turned off. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot
be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one of the amps (only one and the listener can decide which) to compensate for the
difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the
sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in only one amps signal path should make the test even easier.
6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).
7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem.
8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.
9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener.
10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched.
11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.
Page 1 of 2
In addition to these requirements the test will be conducted according to the following rules.
Amplifier Test Comparison Rules
1. To make things easy we would prefer to use high quality home type loudspeakers for the test. If our speakers are not acceptable, the listener can provide any
commercially available speaker system as long as it uses dynamic drivers. The actual measured impedance cannot exceed the rated load impedance of the
amplifiers tested. If, however, the tester would like to perform the test in a car, we will use a car, however, it will have to be provided by the test subject. For
practicality we will have to limit the number of amplifier channels to four or less.
2. Amplifiers will be powered from the same power supply at a nominal 14 volts DC. (any voltage is OK as long as it is the same for both amps) see note
3. The test can be conducted at any volume desired; however, the amps will not be allowed to clip. In other words, listening volume can not exceed the power
capacity of the smallest amp of the pair being tested. (power capacity will be defined as clipping or 2%THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less)
4. No test signals can be used - only commercially available music.
5. The test will be conducted "double blind". The listener will control the switcher and can switch between amps as often and at whatever speed he desires.
The listener can compare the amps for as long as desired. The listener can repeat any sequence as many times as desired. The listener can review his selections
as many times as desired before ending the test. For practical reasons we would like to keep this at least no more than a few hours. A test session will consist
of 12 A/B sequences. Passing the test will require a positive identification of each amp for all 12 sequences. Remember, guessing will get you about 6 out of
12. If the differences are so great, and a subject can really hear the difference, then he/she should be able to do so for all 12 sequences.
6. To win the $10,000.00, the listener must pass two complete sessions of 12 comparisons. Passing the test means 24 correct responses.* The amp of choice
can be compared to the same or a different amp in each session - challengers choice. We have many amplifiers in our demo inventory such as, but not limited
to, Alpine, Rockford, Kicker, Phoenix Gold, Precision Power, MTX, Adcom, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, etc. You can pick any of them or bring your own.
7. All amps must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers. This does not exclude high current amps. Amps can not be modified and must
meet factory specs. They must be "car audio amplifiers designed to be powered from a car's electrical system." (see note below)
8. Failure of an amp (this includes thermal shutdown) during the test will require that the test be repeated after repair or replacement or cooling of the amp.
This means that the entire test session will have to be repeated.
9. The amps will not be overloaded during the session from either a voltage or current requirement.
10. To save time the listener will have to pass a quick 8 trial session to qualify for the extended 2 session test for the money prize. Any 2 amps can be used for
this test. Passing this qualifying test will require at least 6 out of 8 correct answers.
11. The amplifier power up and/or power down sequence will not be acceptable for comparison. (The turn on/off noises of some amplifiers would give it
away.)
12. Cost to take the test is $200.00. $500.00 for people representing companies. Payable in advance, scheduled appointments only. Done correctly the test
takes several hours and I don’t have the time if you aren’t serious.
* Twelve correct responses in a row is certainly a lot of correct listening but $10,000 is also a lot of money for a few hours of easy listening. The way people
describe the differences is that they are like night and day. I would certainly not have any trouble choosing between an apple and an orange 12 times in a row.
When compared fairly I believe the differences in amps are much too small to audibly detect and certainly too small to pay large sums of extra money for. If I
am wrong someone should be able to carefully take this test and win my money. Even if I am right, if enough people take the test eventually someone will take
my money due to random chance. This is the reason for the large sample requirement. If you feel that you can easily pass this test but 12 sequences will give
you "listening fatigue" I am willing to modify the requirements. Since the way it is being offered is a challenge and only my money is at risk I am willing to let
a confident challenger "put his money where his ears are". If we are willing to make this a bet instead of a challenge, I am willing to drop 1 sequence for every
thousand dollars put up by the challenger against my money. This would mean:
____My___________ _ _Your________Trails Required to win__
$10,000 to $0 = 12 Tries
$9,000 to $1,000 = 11 Tries
$8,000 to $2,000 = 10 Tries
$7,000 to $3,000 = 9 Tries
$6,000 to $4,000 = 8 Tries
$5,000 to $5,000 = 7 Tries
$4,000 to $6,000 = 6 Tries
I will not do the test with less than 6 trails. It would be statistically meaningless and reduce the challenge to mere gambling.
NOTE 1----- from conditions 2 & 7 This test mentions 12v and "car" amps only The test originally began with home/studio type amps and was
revised in 1994 for the car audio industry. This version dated 2005 is again expanded to include 120Volt home/studio/commercial type amps.
THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES {revised May 28 , 2005}
By Richard Clark
There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is true in nearly every
known specification, including power, noise, distortion, etc. My experience has led me to believe that even though these differences can be easily measured,
hearing those differences may not be so easy. Given the relatively small magnitude of performance differences, there is a giant step between amplifier
performance and our ability to hear performance differences.
It is claimed by designers, manufacturers and especially salespersons that differences in amplifiers are clearly audible. Reasons include "obvious"
advantages of one type of circuit topology over another. For example, it is claimed that certain designs have a smoother midrange response whereas other
amplifiers exhibit tighter bass. Tube fanatics claim that tube amplifiers have that "warm" sound we all need in our systems.
Such descriptive terms are certainly subject to personal interpretation. It is not my intention to determine if one particular amplifier is better than another
amplifier. Differences in the quality of the discrete components and constructions are more appropriate for settling the issue of "good - better - best." The sole
purpose of my amplifier challenge is to determine if the differences in amplifiers are audible.
What differences are Audible?
I believe the perceived differences in amplifiers are all due to various factors that can be explained with basic physics and elementary psycho-acoustics. For
instance, if two amplifiers are not carefully matched in volume, and one amp is slightly louder than the other, then it would be a simple matter to detect such a
difference. In such an example it is important to understand that it is not the circuit topology, quality of the component, design excellence, or superb marketing
and packaging that caused the noticeable difference - it was an error in the test setup! It is my present belief that as long as a modern amplifier is operated
within its linear range (below overload), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear.
Comparing Amps
The idea here is for a test subject to scientifically demonstrate his/her ability to hear differences in amplifiers. It is our job to carefully match the amps so
that we are comparing "apples to apples" instead of "oranges to frogs." This means that we sure wouldn't want to compare one amplifier that had + 12 dB of
high frequency boost against another amplifier that was adjusted for + 12 dB of bass boost. Such a test would be easy to pass - even on identical amplifiers
with consecutive serial numbers.
For our comparison test, we aren't concerned with which amplifier sounds best to the test subject. We only require that the listener be able to identify each
amplifier when it is powering the speakers. Since many folks seem to believe that amplifiers have some kind of distinctive sonic character, this test should be
easy to pass. Right? After all, we're talking about comparing those harsh sounding, high distortion, squeaky "widget As" to those warm sounding, smooth, bass
hog "widget Bs."
Now pay particular attention to the following sections. Since we're looking for differences in amplifiers, and we already know that those differences are
probably going to be very, very small, it is important that the parameters under our control be carefully adjusted so as to be equal as possible. This means that
we must be cognizant of differences we might unknowingly introduce between amp A and amp B. They must be adjusted as identical as possible. We already
mentioned the importance of volume. The same goes for the L and R balance. It sure would be easy to choose an amplifier that exhibited left side bias over a
balanced amp. Right?
Well, in order to keep this amplifier comparison test fair, there are a few other parameters that must be considered. I'll list them all in the following section.
Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions
1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05 dB.
2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -)
3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above.
4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.
5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those features turned off. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot
be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one of the amps (only one and the listener can decide which) to compensate for the
difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the
sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in only one amps signal path should make the test even easier.
6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).
7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem.
8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.
9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener.
10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched.
11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.
Page 1 of 2
In addition to these requirements the test will be conducted according to the following rules.
Amplifier Test Comparison Rules
1. To make things easy we would prefer to use high quality home type loudspeakers for the test. If our speakers are not acceptable, the listener can provide any
commercially available speaker system as long as it uses dynamic drivers. The actual measured impedance cannot exceed the rated load impedance of the
amplifiers tested. If, however, the tester would like to perform the test in a car, we will use a car, however, it will have to be provided by the test subject. For
practicality we will have to limit the number of amplifier channels to four or less.
2. Amplifiers will be powered from the same power supply at a nominal 14 volts DC. (any voltage is OK as long as it is the same for both amps) see note
3. The test can be conducted at any volume desired; however, the amps will not be allowed to clip. In other words, listening volume can not exceed the power
capacity of the smallest amp of the pair being tested. (power capacity will be defined as clipping or 2%THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less)
4. No test signals can be used - only commercially available music.
5. The test will be conducted "double blind". The listener will control the switcher and can switch between amps as often and at whatever speed he desires.
The listener can compare the amps for as long as desired. The listener can repeat any sequence as many times as desired. The listener can review his selections
as many times as desired before ending the test. For practical reasons we would like to keep this at least no more than a few hours. A test session will consist
of 12 A/B sequences. Passing the test will require a positive identification of each amp for all 12 sequences. Remember, guessing will get you about 6 out of
12. If the differences are so great, and a subject can really hear the difference, then he/she should be able to do so for all 12 sequences.
6. To win the $10,000.00, the listener must pass two complete sessions of 12 comparisons. Passing the test means 24 correct responses.* The amp of choice
can be compared to the same or a different amp in each session - challengers choice. We have many amplifiers in our demo inventory such as, but not limited
to, Alpine, Rockford, Kicker, Phoenix Gold, Precision Power, MTX, Adcom, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, etc. You can pick any of them or bring your own.
7. All amps must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers. This does not exclude high current amps. Amps can not be modified and must
meet factory specs. They must be "car audio amplifiers designed to be powered from a car's electrical system." (see note below)
8. Failure of an amp (this includes thermal shutdown) during the test will require that the test be repeated after repair or replacement or cooling of the amp.
This means that the entire test session will have to be repeated.
9. The amps will not be overloaded during the session from either a voltage or current requirement.
10. To save time the listener will have to pass a quick 8 trial session to qualify for the extended 2 session test for the money prize. Any 2 amps can be used for
this test. Passing this qualifying test will require at least 6 out of 8 correct answers.
11. The amplifier power up and/or power down sequence will not be acceptable for comparison. (The turn on/off noises of some amplifiers would give it
away.)
12. Cost to take the test is $200.00. $500.00 for people representing companies. Payable in advance, scheduled appointments only. Done correctly the test
takes several hours and I don’t have the time if you aren’t serious.
* Twelve correct responses in a row is certainly a lot of correct listening but $10,000 is also a lot of money for a few hours of easy listening. The way people
describe the differences is that they are like night and day. I would certainly not have any trouble choosing between an apple and an orange 12 times in a row.
When compared fairly I believe the differences in amps are much too small to audibly detect and certainly too small to pay large sums of extra money for. If I
am wrong someone should be able to carefully take this test and win my money. Even if I am right, if enough people take the test eventually someone will take
my money due to random chance. This is the reason for the large sample requirement. If you feel that you can easily pass this test but 12 sequences will give
you "listening fatigue" I am willing to modify the requirements. Since the way it is being offered is a challenge and only my money is at risk I am willing to let
a confident challenger "put his money where his ears are". If we are willing to make this a bet instead of a challenge, I am willing to drop 1 sequence for every
thousand dollars put up by the challenger against my money. This would mean:
____My___________ _ _Your________Trails Required to win__
$10,000 to $0 = 12 Tries
$9,000 to $1,000 = 11 Tries
$8,000 to $2,000 = 10 Tries
$7,000 to $3,000 = 9 Tries
$6,000 to $4,000 = 8 Tries
$5,000 to $5,000 = 7 Tries
$4,000 to $6,000 = 6 Tries
I will not do the test with less than 6 trails. It would be statistically meaningless and reduce the challenge to mere gambling.
NOTE 1----- from conditions 2 & 7 This test mentions 12v and "car" amps only The test originally began with home/studio type amps and was
revised in 1994 for the car audio industry. This version dated 2005 is again expanded to include 120Volt home/studio/commercial type amps.
