Sundown Vs DD Z1
08-16-2007, 08:06 PM
#21
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by worldind
I agree, I mean take our little "Test" with several thousand grains of salt... for the most part, it was just a half-*** procedure for kicks. There are way too many confounding variables (Read: different electrical, different impedance, different deck, so on so forth) for our throw-together method to imply any type of causation... although it was cool to see a significantly higher number nonetheless.
Last edited by Gen1_Rx7; 08-16-2007 at 08:10 PM.
08-17-2007, 02:56 AM
#23
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by Gen1_Rx7
The Amp out of that Saturn the one backed up to the Rx7 after the comp? - it pulled a max 146.7 -- that was a close race congrats again - i'll definitly see you next time once i fix the problems i had with it at that comp - i had hit higher than 145 in the early runs of that comp but i had battery and charging problems - too many problems but that need to be adressed--- you still did great man that was pretty amazing i couldnt believe that ending .1db db you had me pinned down - good work whats the max SPL youve pulled with that car?
08-17-2007, 04:04 AM
#24
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by Madspinner
Hey thanks. yeah I couldnt do much with out a remote, just stand back and watch . lol I havent really done much testing with this setup. Im pretty sure I was around that range too if I remember. Ya its not bad for running a 1000bd so we"ll see what happens. I wanted to go to some earlier shows but always stuck working .
09-03-2007, 05:09 PM
#26
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by Team Ricco 2
well ryan gained from runnning a Z1 over 2 sundowns strapped so that says something there, plus this test but I guess ill just wait and see what your test say. Can I say I told you so if the tests dont go so well? If they do go well then right on, Im pretty content with the amp I have right now so whatever your results are im not gonna buy sundowns even if you test 4500 watts out of the pair strapped
Lets do some math on Sean's high voltage numbers, though, to see if they make sense:
Regular voltage testing has shown 1890 watts @ 1/2 ohm with 12.8 volts, per Loyd Lowry's test. This is up from 1615 @ 11.8 volts -- a 17% power increase for an 8% increase in supply voltage.
Sean increased the voltage by 25% from 12.8 to 16 volts and get 19% more power for 2250 watts per amp. Wow, that sounds totally unrealistic... right? Actually, the gain was smaller than the regular voltage testing power gains. So... where is the problem here? What sounds so crazy about that?
---
So... what about Loyd's regular voltage testing that displayed 2200 watts per amp at 12.8 volts?
When strapped at 1 ohm, for 0.5 per amp, Loyd measured 1870 watts per amp. Actually, a bit down from the earlier single amp testing as the amps tend to lose a bit of efficiency when strapped.
So what about 2200 watts? Well, Loyd cut the impedance in HALF to 1/2 ohm *strapped* and was still able to maintain 12.8 volts. This is better than most street cars can say as Loyd's car was running and did have two batteries (1000CA starting, Eagle Picher Horizon, and a 60-amp alternator).
Anyhow... Loyd measured 2212.5 watts per amp which is really only an 18% gain for cutting the impedance in half. Sounds pretty reasonable since when they are dropped from 1 ohm to 1/2 ohm you gain about 19% power. Since Loyd was able to maintain a continuous 12.8 volts his gains from dropping down did not taper off.
---
So... what about comparing to the Z1 in a Street dB drag car? I can answer that one now... as I have in other threads, the 1500D loses alot of efficiency when dropped down low -- as Loyd's testing showed as well.
Now... what is happening in Street cars is generally a drop *under* 12.8 volts (which Loyd never dropped under for his testing), and the 1500D is going to do pretty terribly at 1/4 ohm loads with less than 12.8 volts of supply! That is a fact of the matter since it doesn't have as many parallel transformers as the Z1 to out the rapidly increasing current demands of the dropping voltage. The Z1 likely has more power supply FETs than two 1500Ds combined to further the load out -- this is because DD knew what people would do with the amp.
The 1500Ds power supply section is more than adequate to run on more solid voltage levels and at normal impedance loads... but was not made to compete with something like a Z1 at 1/4 ohm at voltages sagging into the 11s. Could I make it do that? Sure... but why? It's not a dB drag centered amp and that would add alot of cost to benefit about 1% of the people using the amp.
---
No magic here... anyhow, I'm sure Jordy will have some numbers for you guys soon
Last edited by sundownz; 09-03-2007 at 05:17 PM.
09-03-2007, 07:02 PM
#27
I'm not about to get into this e-war, but I think that something needs to be said.
Sundownz - the vast majority of guys that you're arguing with (the horrible westerners LOL!) are interested SOLELY in one thing - their score on the TL. These guys are ALL dbdraggers, and most (if not all) compete in the battery limited street classes.
I know you've stated that you built these amps for daily use, but I don't think the guys you're arguing with are terribly interested in multi-battery, groundpounder setups.
I'm not saying this to cause crap, and I see nothing wrong with testing those amps on a huge battery bank or at 16V, but alot of people (particularly, most of the guys out west) are really only interested in seeing Jordy test them in a street setup with 1-2 batteries, car off.
Sundownz - the vast majority of guys that you're arguing with (the horrible westerners LOL!) are interested SOLELY in one thing - their score on the TL. These guys are ALL dbdraggers, and most (if not all) compete in the battery limited street classes.
I know you've stated that you built these amps for daily use, but I don't think the guys you're arguing with are terribly interested in multi-battery, groundpounder setups.
I'm not saying this to cause crap, and I see nothing wrong with testing those amps on a huge battery bank or at 16V, but alot of people (particularly, most of the guys out west) are really only interested in seeing Jordy test them in a street setup with 1-2 batteries, car off.
09-03-2007, 07:16 PM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by sundownz
As far as I know Jordy will be testing at regular car voltage levels, where he will see at least 1500 watts @ 12.8 volts on a 1 ohm load with very low distortion.
Lets do some math on Sean's high voltage numbers, though, to see if they make sense:
Regular voltage testing has shown 1890 watts @ 1/2 ohm with 12.8 volts, per Loyd Lowry's test. This is up from 1615 @ 11.8 volts -- a 17% power increase for an 8% increase in supply voltage.
Sean increased the voltage by 25% from 12.8 to 16 volts and get 19% more power for 2250 watts per amp. Wow, that sounds totally unrealistic... right? Actually, the gain was smaller than the regular voltage testing power gains. So... where is the problem here? What sounds so crazy about that?
---
So... what about Loyd's regular voltage testing that displayed 2200 watts per amp at 12.8 volts?
When strapped at 1 ohm, for 0.5 per amp, Loyd measured 1870 watts per amp. Actually, a bit down from the earlier single amp testing as the amps tend to lose a bit of efficiency when strapped.
So what about 2200 watts? Well, Loyd cut the impedance in HALF to 1/2 ohm *strapped* and was still able to maintain 12.8 volts. This is better than most street cars can say as Loyd's car was running and did have two batteries (1000CA starting, Eagle Picher Horizon, and a 60-amp alternator).
Anyhow... Loyd measured 2212.5 watts per amp which is really only an 18% gain for cutting the impedance in half. Sounds pretty reasonable since when they are dropped from 1 ohm to 1/2 ohm you gain about 19% power. Since Loyd was able to maintain a continuous 12.8 volts his gains from dropping down did not taper off.
---
So... what about comparing to the Z1 in a Street dB drag car? I can answer that one now... as I have in other threads, the 1500D loses alot of efficiency when dropped down low -- as Loyd's testing showed as well.
Now... what is happening in Street cars is generally a drop *under* 12.8 volts (which Loyd never dropped under for his testing), and the 1500D is going to do pretty terribly at 1/4 ohm loads with less than 12.8 volts of supply! That is a fact of the matter since it doesn't have as many parallel transformers as the Z1 to out the rapidly increasing current demands of the dropping voltage. The Z1 likely has more power supply FETs than two 1500Ds combined to further the load out -- this is because DD knew what people would do with the amp.
The 1500Ds power supply section is more than adequate to run on more solid voltage levels and at normal impedance loads... but was not made to compete with something like a Z1 at 1/4 ohm at voltages sagging into the 11s. Could I make it do that? Sure... but why? It's not a dB drag centered amp and that would add alot of cost to benefit about 1% of the people using the amp.
---
No magic here... anyhow, I'm sure Jordy will have some numbers for you guys soon
Lets do some math on Sean's high voltage numbers, though, to see if they make sense:
Regular voltage testing has shown 1890 watts @ 1/2 ohm with 12.8 volts, per Loyd Lowry's test. This is up from 1615 @ 11.8 volts -- a 17% power increase for an 8% increase in supply voltage.
Sean increased the voltage by 25% from 12.8 to 16 volts and get 19% more power for 2250 watts per amp. Wow, that sounds totally unrealistic... right? Actually, the gain was smaller than the regular voltage testing power gains. So... where is the problem here? What sounds so crazy about that?
---
So... what about Loyd's regular voltage testing that displayed 2200 watts per amp at 12.8 volts?
When strapped at 1 ohm, for 0.5 per amp, Loyd measured 1870 watts per amp. Actually, a bit down from the earlier single amp testing as the amps tend to lose a bit of efficiency when strapped.
So what about 2200 watts? Well, Loyd cut the impedance in HALF to 1/2 ohm *strapped* and was still able to maintain 12.8 volts. This is better than most street cars can say as Loyd's car was running and did have two batteries (1000CA starting, Eagle Picher Horizon, and a 60-amp alternator).
Anyhow... Loyd measured 2212.5 watts per amp which is really only an 18% gain for cutting the impedance in half. Sounds pretty reasonable since when they are dropped from 1 ohm to 1/2 ohm you gain about 19% power. Since Loyd was able to maintain a continuous 12.8 volts his gains from dropping down did not taper off.
---
So... what about comparing to the Z1 in a Street dB drag car? I can answer that one now... as I have in other threads, the 1500D loses alot of efficiency when dropped down low -- as Loyd's testing showed as well.
Now... what is happening in Street cars is generally a drop *under* 12.8 volts (which Loyd never dropped under for his testing), and the 1500D is going to do pretty terribly at 1/4 ohm loads with less than 12.8 volts of supply! That is a fact of the matter since it doesn't have as many parallel transformers as the Z1 to out the rapidly increasing current demands of the dropping voltage. The Z1 likely has more power supply FETs than two 1500Ds combined to further the load out -- this is because DD knew what people would do with the amp.
The 1500Ds power supply section is more than adequate to run on more solid voltage levels and at normal impedance loads... but was not made to compete with something like a Z1 at 1/4 ohm at voltages sagging into the 11s. Could I make it do that? Sure... but why? It's not a dB drag centered amp and that would add alot of cost to benefit about 1% of the people using the amp.
---
No magic here... anyhow, I'm sure Jordy will have some numbers for you guys soon
You're Clowndown amps seem horribly inefficient.... they cause lots of voltage drop but dont make lots of power?
09-03-2007, 07:51 PM
#30
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by The C Team
You're Clowndown amps seem horribly inefficient.... they cause lots of voltage drop but dont make lots of power?
Read any other test results at 1 ohm... perfectly fine, does more than rated power in every test but the one here on CCA (big surprise)... and they are very efficient at that. Heck, they are still pretty efficient at 1/2 ohm provided voltage stays over 12.8 volts.
When they ARE inefficient is when they are ran at 1/4 ohm and especially on voltages sagging under 12.5 volts or so... and even at 1/2 ohm if you are dropping to low 11s doesn't work so great. If this surprises you about an amp that wasn't made for such an application... then maybe you should do some research.
I wrote EXACTLY WHY the 1500D doesn't do well at ridiculously low impedance with very low voltage in plain English, try reading it again. If the voltage drops and you want the amp to keep making power you need MORE CURRENT. On an amp made for 1 ohm operation there is no point in putting six transformers in parallel... so... BIG SURPRISE... a design made for 1 ohm operation loses efficiency when voltage drops and current demand increases rapidly, especially when it's wired to incredibly low loads.
Something like a Z1 is built just for that type of application -- if running your amp for 4-5 seconds at a time at ridiculously low impedance on one battery while the engine is off and you aren't moving is your thing, buy a Z1. It's a great amp for Street dB drag... seriously, go buy one, do it now.
If you are into listening to your stereo... and you understand the scientific method, in that when your test is contrary to every other test ever done that you probably made an error and should try again... then a 1500D would be a great amp for you. And it works well in competition too, not so much 1-battery dB drag, but quite a few people use them for SPL with good results in the USA -- as hard as that may be for you to imagine.
Now... the 3000D is looking pretty good for Street dB Drag. I know that this may totally change reality for some of you guys... but it is possible that you may see some SAZ-3000Ds in world finals if the guys get them in time. And I'm not giving them away, people are buying them *gasps* because... they tested them and... uh oh... they did good!
