The main problem
12-10-2004, 09:30 AM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
my solution to the problem of dumb salesman is this
my installers are my salesman thay get paid twice and they only have to install what they sell you cant bitch if it dont fit.
i feel the cust like's to deal with the installer
that is working on his/her car.
my installers are my salesman thay get paid twice and they only have to install what they sell you cant bitch if it dont fit.
i feel the cust like's to deal with the installer
that is working on his/her car.
12-11-2004, 07:31 AM
#22
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,692
the way i see it is this,
1) the mechanic that made 50 and hours 10 years ago can now charge 65-75 an hour. they can do this cause of thier certification and their training and where it comes from. you grab a mechanic from 10 years ago and throw him in a shop. he will most likley not know what to do(cause of the comps involved). ive known mechanics that have had to go back and re-educate themselves to be able to get hired. same goes for an installer. they were not making intensive installs 10-15 years ago as they do now. but what is the diffference? cars cost more? training techinicians costs more? comp analysers costs more? throw away product? big chain store? Personally its the education. there are so many courses that a mechanic has to take nowadays to keep current. evey time there is a mention about mecp certification on cca there is a split amounst whether it is good or bad. if there were more schools that offered certification, and more schools that were accredited, then there would be higher wages. there would be a standard that would be followed and that standard would increase with time and technology and inflation, same as the mechanics wage. many guys will argue this point till blue in the face, but seriously do you not think that if mecp were offered in bcit nait sait, etc. that there would be an increase of rates for installers same as the mechanic? i think there would.
2) wages. 50% of an install is the standard usually depending on where you work. what we have to do for that 50 is increasingly more then what it was years ago. i really dont know as an installer, cause i am still green, but if you grab any job, you will see that the duties of that same job many years ago was diffent. an employee is contsantly being asked to do more with less, and for les money. and that goes for about any job. to me an installer 15 years ago installed equipment, but now id say an installer is a automotive surgeon. there is no other technician in the world that completely takes apart a vehicle and reassembles it completely different and still functional.(except for monster garage,lol) but the value of that surgeon is less because of the lack of (try not to throw tomatoes at me) certification. some of the best installer i know are good because of their experiences and not thier certification. certification isnt the complete answer, but i do think that it plays a major role as to why an installers wage is the same as years ago, and why the rate hasnt gone up.
3) salesman. ive seen guys that know absolutely nothing about cars or audio, sell tonnes of it. its is amazing that a salesman can make sales and not rely on knowledge of product to do it. i am thining about this one fellow i know that just makes retarded salary due to his saleman skill, and completely not know about car audio. cant say his name cause he is very well known, but this guys is creme-de-la-crop. its all attitude. selling ice cream to an eskimo. i cant do that. not even close. but he is prosperous because he knows who he is selling to. i think that if you have a store that is small and you are able to sell then that store should be able to prosper. if you grab a store and throw money at it and put a crappy salesman there, it will prosper but it would always have to throw money at it. the conflict is when that saleman doesnt know didly squat about car audio. the installer suffers. ive seen that happen plenty of times too.
no need to argue with me. cause im know that my reason are not the only reason. big chain stores are coming in and all over the place. but i do believe that reputatuion and relationships with consumers are going to keep the independant stores alive. there are many many people with money and all of them(most of them) drive cars. most want that car to sound great. some can only spend hundreds and some spend thousands. there are enough consumers to make everyone pockets big.
[ December 11, 2004, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Team Shadow ]
1) the mechanic that made 50 and hours 10 years ago can now charge 65-75 an hour. they can do this cause of thier certification and their training and where it comes from. you grab a mechanic from 10 years ago and throw him in a shop. he will most likley not know what to do(cause of the comps involved). ive known mechanics that have had to go back and re-educate themselves to be able to get hired. same goes for an installer. they were not making intensive installs 10-15 years ago as they do now. but what is the diffference? cars cost more? training techinicians costs more? comp analysers costs more? throw away product? big chain store? Personally its the education. there are so many courses that a mechanic has to take nowadays to keep current. evey time there is a mention about mecp certification on cca there is a split amounst whether it is good or bad. if there were more schools that offered certification, and more schools that were accredited, then there would be higher wages. there would be a standard that would be followed and that standard would increase with time and technology and inflation, same as the mechanics wage. many guys will argue this point till blue in the face, but seriously do you not think that if mecp were offered in bcit nait sait, etc. that there would be an increase of rates for installers same as the mechanic? i think there would.
2) wages. 50% of an install is the standard usually depending on where you work. what we have to do for that 50 is increasingly more then what it was years ago. i really dont know as an installer, cause i am still green, but if you grab any job, you will see that the duties of that same job many years ago was diffent. an employee is contsantly being asked to do more with less, and for les money. and that goes for about any job. to me an installer 15 years ago installed equipment, but now id say an installer is a automotive surgeon. there is no other technician in the world that completely takes apart a vehicle and reassembles it completely different and still functional.(except for monster garage,lol) but the value of that surgeon is less because of the lack of (try not to throw tomatoes at me) certification. some of the best installer i know are good because of their experiences and not thier certification. certification isnt the complete answer, but i do think that it plays a major role as to why an installers wage is the same as years ago, and why the rate hasnt gone up.
3) salesman. ive seen guys that know absolutely nothing about cars or audio, sell tonnes of it. its is amazing that a salesman can make sales and not rely on knowledge of product to do it. i am thining about this one fellow i know that just makes retarded salary due to his saleman skill, and completely not know about car audio. cant say his name cause he is very well known, but this guys is creme-de-la-crop. its all attitude. selling ice cream to an eskimo. i cant do that. not even close. but he is prosperous because he knows who he is selling to. i think that if you have a store that is small and you are able to sell then that store should be able to prosper. if you grab a store and throw money at it and put a crappy salesman there, it will prosper but it would always have to throw money at it. the conflict is when that saleman doesnt know didly squat about car audio. the installer suffers. ive seen that happen plenty of times too.
no need to argue with me. cause im know that my reason are not the only reason. big chain stores are coming in and all over the place. but i do believe that reputatuion and relationships with consumers are going to keep the independant stores alive. there are many many people with money and all of them(most of them) drive cars. most want that car to sound great. some can only spend hundreds and some spend thousands. there are enough consumers to make everyone pockets big.
[ December 11, 2004, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Team Shadow ]
12-11-2004, 08:32 AM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yes Pat, it comes down to certification, but what certification do we have? MECP is pretty much an industry joke, and until AES recognizes what we do and offers us education, there never will be anything.
And no offence to any mechanics, but I just had a customer have a fuse replaced at a dealership, total time 1.9hours to diagnose... a fuse.... mechanics are not trained to think anymore, they're trained to follow a flowchart that the manufactures have engineered for maximum profit.
And no offence to any mechanics, but I just had a customer have a fuse replaced at a dealership, total time 1.9hours to diagnose... a fuse.... mechanics are not trained to think anymore, they're trained to follow a flowchart that the manufactures have engineered for maximum profit.
12-11-2004, 11:08 PM
#25
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,692
thats why i think that an installer can be somewhat also be called a surgeon. takes alot of imagination and common sense.
12-28-2004, 07:15 PM
#26
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 313
Our "quoted" shop rate is $55/hour - sometimes I charge $65/hour, why ?? Because if I think the customer will pay it - I'll go for it.
The $55/hr rate is to be competitive with the "box" stores - even that is higher than what they are !!
The $65/hr rate comes into play when we do custom work, that I know they wont be willing to do or cant do !! Hey my installers are worth it, some of these mechanics that are charging $85-$90/hr for changing oil at a car dealership - gimme a break, but customers are paying it.
Just because someone is doing it, doesn't mean you have to follow. (discounting I mean).
I'm a salesman - you don't want me installing - trust me. If a guy is grinding me - i'll take the hit on the gear, not the labour !!
Discounting labour is wrong - unless the installer agrees with it to get the deal !!
The $55/hr rate is to be competitive with the "box" stores - even that is higher than what they are !!
The $65/hr rate comes into play when we do custom work, that I know they wont be willing to do or cant do !! Hey my installers are worth it, some of these mechanics that are charging $85-$90/hr for changing oil at a car dealership - gimme a break, but customers are paying it.
Just because someone is doing it, doesn't mean you have to follow. (discounting I mean).
I'm a salesman - you don't want me installing - trust me. If a guy is grinding me - i'll take the hit on the gear, not the labour !!
Discounting labour is wrong - unless the installer agrees with it to get the deal !!
12-29-2004, 09:11 PM
#27
500 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 952
There are a lot of good point made here, but the main issue is what is the installer worth/or should be paid?
In my experiences, I've found that any "green" installer will go through his/her learning curve over a period of 2-3 years, and for some reason, after that period, every installer feels he's a "know-it-all", and demands a higher rate for his work.
Granted that after a few years with a company an employee will undergo pay raises and it's at that time that a proper salary should be negotiated.
The problem I see with many shops is lack of co-ordination and communication between the customer-salesperson and installer. The term "TEAM WORK" must come into play here, this is the opportunity for the installer to educate both the salesperson and the consumer as to what will fit, where it will go, and what it will take to do. ( I can sense the frustrations of this problem from some of the posts on this thread).
Every install is a learning experience, and I know that many times a job took far too long than it should have, and I knew that I had to "eat" some labour and attribute it to a learning experience, and I knew what to do next time a similar situation presented itself.
As for certification, yes this industry needs that, and especially to distinguish between experienced and in-experienced installers. I've seen some "Expert" installers make simple yet very costly mistakes.
As for that certification allowing to charge more for labour, hell no! Higher pay, sure. We cannot compare this industry to Mechanics, but we need something similar, including trade schools, such as Mobile Dynamics, that will carry some form of accreditation to allow for personal insurance within the trade.
In my experiences, I've found that any "green" installer will go through his/her learning curve over a period of 2-3 years, and for some reason, after that period, every installer feels he's a "know-it-all", and demands a higher rate for his work.
Granted that after a few years with a company an employee will undergo pay raises and it's at that time that a proper salary should be negotiated.
The problem I see with many shops is lack of co-ordination and communication between the customer-salesperson and installer. The term "TEAM WORK" must come into play here, this is the opportunity for the installer to educate both the salesperson and the consumer as to what will fit, where it will go, and what it will take to do. ( I can sense the frustrations of this problem from some of the posts on this thread).
Every install is a learning experience, and I know that many times a job took far too long than it should have, and I knew that I had to "eat" some labour and attribute it to a learning experience, and I knew what to do next time a similar situation presented itself.
As for certification, yes this industry needs that, and especially to distinguish between experienced and in-experienced installers. I've seen some "Expert" installers make simple yet very costly mistakes.
As for that certification allowing to charge more for labour, hell no! Higher pay, sure. We cannot compare this industry to Mechanics, but we need something similar, including trade schools, such as Mobile Dynamics, that will carry some form of accreditation to allow for personal insurance within the trade.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
LaZyLuke
Car Audio Technical Discussions
23
12-11-2007 01:54 PM
vip3r87
Car Audio Technical Discussions
6
12-03-2006 07:17 PM
