equipment race - get out out it
07-08-2004, 11:02 AM
#71
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 73
I agree that one should not get too caught up in chasing ever-better gear just for the sake of it. I've been there, and will be tempted again in the future -- believe me, it is largely a waste of time.
Car systems are so dependent on the installation that one would be better spending the initial money on having merely decent components installed well. It is far too easy to waste great components in a lousy install.
Do your research -- listen to some simple, two-channel home systems to hear what reproduced music CAN sound like. And go see live music played WITHOUT AMPLIFICATION to here what it SHOULD sound like. Then use this as your guide. And forget about chasing gear.
One cardinal rule: music should never hurt your ears. NEVER. If it does, something is wrong with the system (poor tonal balance, distortion, even too much volume).
I've had the good fortune to hear some of the best music reproduction systems that money can buy, and I have become spoiled. It makes it difficult to accept some of the limits of a car-based system (especially in my convertible -- try getting good sound at high volumes in a noisy open cab at 120km/h! I'll keep trying but it is an elusive goal. If anyone has managed it, I'd love to hear from them.)
But I have also owned relatively inexpensive home systems (under $2k all in -- never pay retail!) that enabled me to enjoy listening to music. Did they compare to my old analogue VPI/Grado/Counterpoint/Magnepan system? Hell no -- that system had its limitations, but you could listen to it all day and it could still give you goosebumps... But the inexpensive systems were good enough that I still looked forward to listening. And believe me, actually sitting in a room, listening to music, with no other distractions, is a luxury that few of us ever actually enjoy(I don't have the time anymore, which is why my car systems are so important to me...)
So dump your egos overboard. Who cares what the rest of us think. Your car system should make you happy. Want a prettier amp? Hey, I'd love a couple of Brax or Sinfoni amps for each of my cars. And their cost is justifiable. And they would improve the sonics -- that I believe (though I will want to hear them in my car first). But they can wait. In the meantime, I'm going back to the garage to play with my Altomobile eq -- one of these days I'll actually get the tonal balance right (something that would be easier to accomplish if I could do it while travelling at freeway speeds...).
And would it be any fun if there were no challenges?
Car systems are so dependent on the installation that one would be better spending the initial money on having merely decent components installed well. It is far too easy to waste great components in a lousy install.
Do your research -- listen to some simple, two-channel home systems to hear what reproduced music CAN sound like. And go see live music played WITHOUT AMPLIFICATION to here what it SHOULD sound like. Then use this as your guide. And forget about chasing gear.
One cardinal rule: music should never hurt your ears. NEVER. If it does, something is wrong with the system (poor tonal balance, distortion, even too much volume).
I've had the good fortune to hear some of the best music reproduction systems that money can buy, and I have become spoiled. It makes it difficult to accept some of the limits of a car-based system (especially in my convertible -- try getting good sound at high volumes in a noisy open cab at 120km/h! I'll keep trying but it is an elusive goal. If anyone has managed it, I'd love to hear from them.)
But I have also owned relatively inexpensive home systems (under $2k all in -- never pay retail!) that enabled me to enjoy listening to music. Did they compare to my old analogue VPI/Grado/Counterpoint/Magnepan system? Hell no -- that system had its limitations, but you could listen to it all day and it could still give you goosebumps... But the inexpensive systems were good enough that I still looked forward to listening. And believe me, actually sitting in a room, listening to music, with no other distractions, is a luxury that few of us ever actually enjoy(I don't have the time anymore, which is why my car systems are so important to me...)
So dump your egos overboard. Who cares what the rest of us think. Your car system should make you happy. Want a prettier amp? Hey, I'd love a couple of Brax or Sinfoni amps for each of my cars. And their cost is justifiable. And they would improve the sonics -- that I believe (though I will want to hear them in my car first). But they can wait. In the meantime, I'm going back to the garage to play with my Altomobile eq -- one of these days I'll actually get the tonal balance right (something that would be easier to accomplish if I could do it while travelling at freeway speeds...).
And would it be any fun if there were no challenges?
07-09-2004, 08:29 PM
#72
A bit off topic, but it begs to be asked.
I am a guitar player, I have played many of the finest amps ever created. But when I was playing on different amps before I finally settled on my current amp, why, did I (and most guitar players) prefer Tube amps over a solid state?
Just as an exapmle, I went into a guitar shop with my own guitar,(Ibanez RG-270 with an EMG active pick-up and 2 Seymore Duncan Passive humbuckers), I went in and I played a Mesa triple rectifier head powering a Marshall half stack. Then I played some kind of Peavy solid state head on the same half stack. Using the same patch cable(Planet Waves) and no effects proccessor I liked the Mesa unit better(Tube).
There SHOULD be very little difference, however I could not get over how much more clean the sound was from the Mesa combination. WTF [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
I am a guitar player, I have played many of the finest amps ever created. But when I was playing on different amps before I finally settled on my current amp, why, did I (and most guitar players) prefer Tube amps over a solid state?
Just as an exapmle, I went into a guitar shop with my own guitar,(Ibanez RG-270 with an EMG active pick-up and 2 Seymore Duncan Passive humbuckers), I went in and I played a Mesa triple rectifier head powering a Marshall half stack. Then I played some kind of Peavy solid state head on the same half stack. Using the same patch cable(Planet Waves) and no effects proccessor I liked the Mesa unit better(Tube).
There SHOULD be very little difference, however I could not get over how much more clean the sound was from the Mesa combination. WTF [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
07-13-2004, 04:53 PM
#75
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 295
who is to say it sounds better?
the guy(or girl) who listends to it
if i cant hear the different between the $100 speakers and the $1000 speakers i will buy the cheaper of the two.
its all about who has to listen to it, if they enjoy, thats all that matters.
the guy(or girl) who listends to it
if i cant hear the different between the $100 speakers and the $1000 speakers i will buy the cheaper of the two.
its all about who has to listen to it, if they enjoy, thats all that matters.
07-13-2004, 06:13 PM
#76
Originally posted by mister steve:
who is to say it sounds better?
the guy(or girl) who listends to it
if i cant hear the different between the $100 speakers and the $1000 speakers i will buy the cheaper of the two.
its all about who has to listen to it, if they enjoy, thats all that matters.
who is to say it sounds better?
the guy(or girl) who listends to it
if i cant hear the different between the $100 speakers and the $1000 speakers i will buy the cheaper of the two.
its all about who has to listen to it, if they enjoy, thats all that matters.
07-14-2004, 09:16 AM
#77
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,649
The point about getting what you want because "you like it" cannot be stressed enough. That's where I have an issue with some people who believe they know it all and their worst offence is that they believe they KNOW what sounds right for everyone else. How can this be possible when no two people will hear things exactly the same way?!?!? Maybe some people will be close, but others may really be far off in what they hear versus what so-and-so hears.
So to sit there and say to someone that you "KNOW" what's good for them and to push them to buy into what you believe is the best thing for them may end up not being right at all. At the end of the day, they may stand there agreeing just because they trust you and may believe that you do actually know what's better for them versus someone guiding them to make a great choice based on their own ears.
I think the trick is to be able to provide good choices but let the consumer decide at the end of the day. Provide guidance in the basics of what's available and what these items can do but don't herd them off in a direction because you think you know better about their tastes and what you believe they are hearing.
To go back to the comment about deciding when gear is a limiting factor.......... you can usually hear it after you've spent an eternity tuning/rebuilding the install and don't progress any further, but know that something is still missing. I wouldn't say it's a hard and fast rule as some cars are close to impossible to fix, but that's how I see it.
So to sit there and say to someone that you "KNOW" what's good for them and to push them to buy into what you believe is the best thing for them may end up not being right at all. At the end of the day, they may stand there agreeing just because they trust you and may believe that you do actually know what's better for them versus someone guiding them to make a great choice based on their own ears.
I think the trick is to be able to provide good choices but let the consumer decide at the end of the day. Provide guidance in the basics of what's available and what these items can do but don't herd them off in a direction because you think you know better about their tastes and what you believe they are hearing.
To go back to the comment about deciding when gear is a limiting factor.......... you can usually hear it after you've spent an eternity tuning/rebuilding the install and don't progress any further, but know that something is still missing. I wouldn't say it's a hard and fast rule as some cars are close to impossible to fix, but that's how I see it.
07-14-2004, 09:52 AM
#78
Again, I must ask you to read the post! [img]graemlins/deal4u.gif[/img]
The topic at the time was guitar amps -- not car stereo.
Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you should always buy the STEREO that makes you happiest. It is not a bad idea to make sure your system matches somewhat.
So, Tom and Steve are you guys planning on putting some fine Pyramid gear into your rides soon -- you never know, someone might find it "sounds" better to them!
PS -- Back in the day when the question "how do we know something is better absolutely", came up in Philosophy, the best descrition I could find was Plato's "Real World of Ideas" -- some things are so blantanly universal that anyone can "see" them (for example, ever hear a great riff and you almost feel like you wrote it?). If you want to explore the concept further, I suggest reading Plato.
The topic at the time was guitar amps -- not car stereo.
Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you should always buy the STEREO that makes you happiest. It is not a bad idea to make sure your system matches somewhat.
So, Tom and Steve are you guys planning on putting some fine Pyramid gear into your rides soon -- you never know, someone might find it "sounds" better to them!
PS -- Back in the day when the question "how do we know something is better absolutely", came up in Philosophy, the best descrition I could find was Plato's "Real World of Ideas" -- some things are so blantanly universal that anyone can "see" them (for example, ever hear a great riff and you almost feel like you wrote it?). If you want to explore the concept further, I suggest reading Plato.
07-14-2004, 02:16 PM
#80
Sorry...... I'll make my thoughts more "universal"
Mike think that it good that people like stereos. Mike think that what Dereck like in stereo can be different than what Mike like, but Mike think both Dereck and Mike will agree that some stereos are good no matter who listens to them. Mike think some things are "obviously good" and that it is "obvious" to everyone. Mike hopes all understand Mike.
Mike think that it good that people like stereos. Mike think that what Dereck like in stereo can be different than what Mike like, but Mike think both Dereck and Mike will agree that some stereos are good no matter who listens to them. Mike think some things are "obviously good" and that it is "obvious" to everyone. Mike hopes all understand Mike.
