A Debate on the many different aspects of sound
02-03-2005, 11:45 PM
#52
I have watched this thread for a while now, defro researches and tries everything BEFORE he speaks. I agree with people that state "they can get up front bass with rear subs". But it really makes the difference in stage depth. If you do not use a front woofer, you can get "up front base" but not with a huge sense of depth in the front stage. The stage will move forward to back when low drums hit for example. You also have to look at what judges are looking for. IASCA is suttle, bass. USACi is more impact, like a live show. Most people you are referring to, won in IASCA...98% of the World Champions in the last 3 years with USACi have up front woofers. It is the biggest noticeable difference with IASCA and USACi. I like impact in my music!
For all those old schoolers out there, I have never built a car with "A" pillar tweeters before. I was always taught the woofer and the tweeter are to be mounted as close as possible. Maybe some old schoolers, should get new schooled. 99% of cars that won finals in both IASCA and USACi run "A" pillar tweeters only. Maybe try it, get it judged, experiment...
The biggest reason for porting doors is to extend the useable frequencies of the mid you are using. Using the port tuning frequency to extend past the useable output of the speaker, is a awesome way to improve your front stage, simply getting lower frequencies in the front stage. It is really hard to achieve, but look at defro...5th in the world, with speakers in the door...hum...he even beat people with up front woofers.
For all those old schoolers out there, I have never built a car with "A" pillar tweeters before. I was always taught the woofer and the tweeter are to be mounted as close as possible. Maybe some old schoolers, should get new schooled. 99% of cars that won finals in both IASCA and USACi run "A" pillar tweeters only. Maybe try it, get it judged, experiment...
The biggest reason for porting doors is to extend the useable frequencies of the mid you are using. Using the port tuning frequency to extend past the useable output of the speaker, is a awesome way to improve your front stage, simply getting lower frequencies in the front stage. It is really hard to achieve, but look at defro...5th in the world, with speakers in the door...hum...he even beat people with up front woofers.
02-04-2005, 01:19 AM
#53
^ you get extended freq response... but at the regular costs of porting.... Id sooner buy larger or better speakers and more power...
I see no way to tell where your sub is in the car unless you were hearing diff response... frequencies above the point where cabin gain comes into play may load differently... so having the driver in one location vs another may improve freq. response...
To say the front is better.. maybe in some cars... but I cross my subs over pretty low... and I can't see this happening under 80-100hz...
Thats midbass territory IMO...
[ February 04, 2005, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: Haunz ]
I see no way to tell where your sub is in the car unless you were hearing diff response... frequencies above the point where cabin gain comes into play may load differently... so having the driver in one location vs another may improve freq. response...
To say the front is better.. maybe in some cars... but I cross my subs over pretty low... and I can't see this happening under 80-100hz...
Thats midbass territory IMO...
[ February 04, 2005, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: Haunz ]
02-04-2005, 02:40 AM
#54
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,783
Someone is going to shoot me here but....
Has anyone done that little experiment I suggested a while ago with a rear mounted sub?
***Play only the subwoofer, and see where it SOUNDS like it's coming from***
Now for those running a sub from 60 to 80 hz down, try running the sub from 40hz down. Does the sub appear slightly less directional? Porting a midbass driver that is eligible, will help you run the sub with a lower LP point.
This will help disguise where the sub is, but it won't hide it completely.
I've got pretty good speakers, and a ludricrus amount of power, yet my sub bass still comes from the back. It will be different in everyone's car, but I don't think that my car is especially "bad" sounding in general.
I know a few people might be thinking that the E46 3 series is a bad platform for an SQ car. All I can say to that is wait until Spring Break Nationals...a silver 3 series should break cover with a nice surprise.
Now where the heck can I fit ported midbass drivers?
Adam
Has anyone done that little experiment I suggested a while ago with a rear mounted sub?
***Play only the subwoofer, and see where it SOUNDS like it's coming from***
Now for those running a sub from 60 to 80 hz down, try running the sub from 40hz down. Does the sub appear slightly less directional? Porting a midbass driver that is eligible, will help you run the sub with a lower LP point.
This will help disguise where the sub is, but it won't hide it completely.
I've got pretty good speakers, and a ludricrus amount of power, yet my sub bass still comes from the back. It will be different in everyone's car, but I don't think that my car is especially "bad" sounding in general.
I know a few people might be thinking that the E46 3 series is a bad platform for an SQ car. All I can say to that is wait until Spring Break Nationals...a silver 3 series should break cover with a nice surprise.
Now where the heck can I fit ported midbass drivers?
Adam
02-04-2005, 06:59 AM
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
my rearspl oriented woofers were crossed over at 30db/octave at 31hz and i could still tell where the woofers were and i was biased, i really wanted them to sound like they came from up front because of the amount of work it took to get the woofer ontop of my dash. i played with every conceivable x-over point and slope and even t/a and could never get it, if anyone thinks they can get up front bass with an x-over point at 80-100 hz on rear woofers, i will get up on my counter at work and shoot sparks out my a$$ then turn around and kiss dukk's hairy *** [img]tongue.gif[/img]
02-04-2005, 07:41 AM
#56
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,220
Dave, most guys with good UFB with subs in the back xover there subs somewhere around 50hz. The problem is it usually takes dedicated midbass playing from the subs to about 250hz.
If my memory is right, i think part of your problem was being a little weak in the 50-100hz area.. I think that center woofer (I would call it a midbass myself) was trying to do to much.
[ February 04, 2005, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: chev2 ]
If my memory is right, i think part of your problem was being a little weak in the 50-100hz area.. I think that center woofer (I would call it a midbass myself) was trying to do to much.
[ February 04, 2005, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: chev2 ]
02-04-2005, 08:20 AM
#58
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,220
generally (myself anyway) think this way:
Subwoofer freq's = 0-60hz
midbass freqs = 60hz to 300hz (300-500hz about)
midrange freqs = 300hz to 4khz
high freqs = 4khz up.
Your front mounted woofer was playing from 30hz to 200hz?? wasnt it? a well its just what we call it anyway.. will settle with "woofer". LOL
Myself when i think front mounted sub, i think 80-100hz down and NO rear subs playing AT ALL. I think all of the winning expert/advanced guys with front mounted subs dont use there rear subs at all.
[ February 04, 2005, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: chev2 ]
Subwoofer freq's = 0-60hz
midbass freqs = 60hz to 300hz (300-500hz about)
midrange freqs = 300hz to 4khz
high freqs = 4khz up.
Your front mounted woofer was playing from 30hz to 200hz?? wasnt it? a well its just what we call it anyway.. will settle with "woofer". LOL
Myself when i think front mounted sub, i think 80-100hz down and NO rear subs playing AT ALL. I think all of the winning expert/advanced guys with front mounted subs dont use there rear subs at all.
[ February 04, 2005, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: chev2 ]
