MR2NR

iTrader: (66)

Pioneer has long had a digital system, I used one of the originals myself way back in 1991, the model # will come to me, give it some time. It was a great deck, very flexible and sounded great. It however had noise issues due to the power supply. This was at a time when I was close minded and considered Pioneer to be the best and then I took out the Pioneer and replaced it with a Alpine 7909, imagine my surprise. I have used and sold many brands over the years but I will choose the right one for the customer based on what they need, not what other say or want.

Kool

iTrader: (1)

We are only comparing apples to oranges here because the gentlemen asked. And all along I have been saying you can't compare the 8053 to the P9. Have you even read my posts??

You say you are open minded, yet you still bias your results by making statements such as "This was at a time when I was close minded and considered Pioneer to be the best." I am not saying the P9 is the best thing out there. But to answer the gentlemen's question, the P9 will be better for competition purposes than the 8053 because of the superior processing ability that that it posesses. Maybe you did not read the inital post??? Instead you see Eclipse mentioned in a post and decide to promote it.

Again, I will state, ECLIPSE IS A GREAT BRAND AND I WOULD CONSIDER GETTING AN 8053 MYSELF.

However, the P9 is in a different class, which has been my point all along after Scarlemthug has implied that Eclipse is the greatest brand hands down. He has shown this biased opinion in several threads and Johnny Toronto has backed me up on this bias. You simply can not compare the 2 units. If this gentleman requires tuning abilites since he will be competing, what is the point of getting a deck (8053) that has modest tuning abilities at best and then buy an EQ to add on after, when he can get it all in one package (P9). The P9 also has potential for a video system, as there is a 6 disk DVD changer that is part of the P9 line-up. You can run all audio digital and the DEX P9 has the DVD control capabilities. The 8053 doesn't have this ability. Again we are comparing apples and oranges here as you say, but that is exactly what I was getting at all along. The 8053 DOES NOT compare to the P9 combo.

[ February 27, 2004, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Kool ]

MR2NR

iTrader: (66)

"You say you are open minded, yet you still bias your results by making statements such as "This was at a time when I was close minded and considered Pioneer to be the best.""

This is as open minded as anything, I found out that there was life other than Pioneer and it opened my eyes and ears to other possibilities. Next I had to train my brain to disregard everything the reps said about their brand and not let them buy my vote by giving me trips to Indy Vancouver (Pioneer), leather jackets x 2 (Pioneer), home theatre amp, cd player, sub amplifier (Kenwood)and the list goes on for pages more. All these things are great for the impressionable commission salesman, but this is the things that I have had to learn to ignore in order to remain open minded. Yes I still have a bias, but I cannot sell everyone an Eclipse, that is when I must sell them something different, like Pioneer.
I think we have a good discussion going here and it is nice to see it kept clean, we have a difference of opinions, that is all. I have not heard back from my Pioneer rep yet. When I do and if I get the necessary info, I'll post it up.
I'm curios as to how that cd player will perform without the processor.
Some of the best sounding systems ever have not used this degree of processing at all, matter of fact they started with a good cd player, good speakers and proper installation. If they could not correct a problem with installation or a change of equipment then they would add the dedicated processor to solve the identified problem.
You seem to think that the processor is a must for whatever reason when it seems that you have not identified the problem that makes it necessary. No matter what, the more times you manipulate a signal with any kind of processor, the greater the cahnce of noise and signal degredation. Let's hear your thought on this.

Kool

iTrader: (1)

The DEX P9 was designed with the intention of using the DEQ P9 along with it. People who purchase the combo already know that they want the tuning capabilities of a 32 band eq. And let me remind you that it is digital and when the processor is being used, the signal is not transformed into Analogue until it reaches the processor. This is not the same as using a deck and running the RCA cables to connect a deck that has already converted the signal to analogue. The Eclipse 8053 has a lessor processing capability built right into the deck, which is between the transport and DAC in the signal path. This would be manipulating the signal and degrading it by your own arguement.

The P9 is comprised of 2 units instead of one. The toslink cable basicly connects the transport to the DAC which is located in the processor when using both units. Think of the toslink cable as the cable that connects the transport to the DAC in the 8053. There is no induced noise since it is a digital signal. So if you think of it this way, the P9 is working as a single unit, with a transport sending the signal to a processor, and then to the DAC. The processing portion of the unit is merely in the trunk rather than in the dash, as is the case with the 8053. Furthermore, when running an RCA, as you have to do with the 8053, you run the risk of picking up induced noise.

If all processing is bad, then why do all decks have some sort of eq adjustment? I can't think of a single deck that doesn't have at least a bass and treble adjustment. Maybe one exists, but I am unaware of it. The processing that the P9 has will not degrade the signal anymore than the Eclipse 8053. The P9 just simply has more adjustment and tuning capability, which is pretty essential in SQ competition. And SQ competition is what this gentleman wants to do, and he is willing to pay the cash for the P9.

As Tom said earlier, the P9 can not be beat in regards to the tuning capability it offers for the amount it costs.

MR2NR

iTrader: (66)

I am fully awar of the merits of digital signal transmission, however it all starts with the signal pulled off of the cd itself and then (processor aside) sent to the DAC, the end result is an anologue signal at the end of the day. The end result is what I am interested in, not the buns on the burger.
I am not disputing the processing power of the outboard unit at all, I'm sure this is a great combination for those that have been led to believe that they must have it instead of finding out if they need it. I'll bet that Pionner cd player still uses the same basic laser assembly as all the rest of the line, a better DAC, and the same preout stages as their upper end units. This said (leave processor aside) is still not on the same playing field as the Eclipse CD8053, the Eclipse then is in between the two fields.
The merits of tuning in sq competition are a different story all together, if one should have to constantly change their settings, there is something fundementally wrong with it in the first place.
I have no doubt that this is a great cd player for the person that wants it and will use it for their capabilities. This cd player as good as it may be is not in such drastic demand as you may think, just like a car manufacturer makes a V12, who in fact needs it to go to the quicky mart every day.
I have judged my fair share of soundoffs in my years, matter of fact I was an Iasca judge back in the early 90's. I think I am fairly well versed in many aspects of the car audio industry and am able to give accurate and informed information. You seem to be fairly well versed in this particular case, are you employed in a store by chance?

scarlemthug

Sounds like the words of an Eclipse dealer [img]tongue.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]I personally would take an 8 series over the P9 combo just because I dont wanna have to deal with a huge exterior processor and I believe that the eclipse will sound more natural and clearer than the pioneer. Everyone has there own opinion but saying im biased is stupid. Yes I love my eclipse HU, but if you can show me something available on the north american market that sounds better than an 8 series eclipse without the need for an external processor and doesnt cost $5000 then I would be suggesting that unit. </font>[/QUOTE]You are in fact biased. Every time Eclipse is mentioned on this board you are all over it. Lets hear a comment on the problems Eclipse decks have had such as the turn on problems with the 8443 that are being discussed on ECA right now.

Furthermore, you can pick a P9 up for far less than 5 grand. The DEQ P9 is not huge, it is fairly compact actually. It has far more processing ability than the Eclipse by itself. I can't believe you are even comparing them on the same level. The P9 can do so much more than the Eclipse unit, and it should since it costs more. I am by no means saying the 8053 isn't a great deck, but it simply isn't on the same level as the P9. </font>[/QUOTE]Like I said, show me something that doesnt require an add-on processor or doesnt cost $5000(F1 status) and then we can talk. Yes I bet the P9 has tons of tuning capabilities when paired with the add-on processor, but that doesnt mean its gonna sound the same as an eclipse. I am not gonna go and suggest something I havent used or that I know doesnt work. Eclipse is an amazing product and I stand behind them 100%.

About the turn on thump problem, thats not even an issue when you look at the amount of problems every other deck company has. How about alpine motorized faces wearing out and breaking?

I dont jump all over stuff where eclipse is mentioned, if someone asks a question about eclipse I will put in my .02 just like you do. Sorry for trying to share my knowledge of eclipse stuff with other people, didnt know public forums banned people expressing there opinions. </font>[/QUOTE]We are not talking about Eclipse and Alpine here. We are directly comparing the P9 combo and the Eclipse 8053. You say show you something that doesn't require an add-on unit. Well that isn't the point of this thread now is it. The DEX P9 was designed to work with an add on processor. The DEX P9 is basicly meant to be a Transport.

The 8053 is a stand alone unit and is meant to be used as such. You say it is cheaper which is true, and for someone that doesn't require the tuning capabilities, the 8053 would do great. For someone that competes and is willing to spend some extra $, the P9 stomps all over the 8053.

But as you say in your last post, the Eclipse isn't comparable to the P9 since the P9 requires a seperate processor and costs more. This is my main point. The Eclipse 8053 just isn't in the same class as the P9 combo. You implied in an earlier post that the 8053 is better than the P9, which is the reason I got into this.

Compare the DEH 940 to the Eclipse 8053, and then you have a point. However, the gentlemen was asking about the P9 versus the 8053. </font>[/QUOTE]In the same class in terms of EQ and crossover no the eclipse isnt in the same class. But also remember its a single DIN unit that will put pretty much any other DIN unit to shame in terms of tuning and Sound quality. I cant comment on whether the eclipse would sound better than the P9, but I do feel like there isnt really anything that is not designed for a comp. car that can compete with it.

Nice little debate going on here. [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img]

Kool

iTrader: (1)

First of all, what difference does it make if I am employed by a store? I have seen many employees in car audio shops that don't know anything about the product they sell. To be honest, I am pretty dissappointed you resorted to such a low blow on that one, trying to take away my credibility. It actually sounds as if you have no knowledge at all about the P9 since you have to ask the distributor. So in fact, it would seem that you have been arguing ignorant to the facts of what the P9 can do. I would think a gentleman that is the largest retailer for Eclipse in BC would at least have some knowledge of such a talked about product. I will enlighten you later on in this reply.

Second of all, you DO need to change your settings in a SQ comp because what sounds good to the judge doesn't always sound good to you. You can store up to 6 sets of settings on the P9 allowing you to have different settings for various judges' preferences as well as your own.

Thirdly, comparing the 8053 to the DEX P9 alone is just ignorant as the DEX P9 was purposely designed by Pioneer to work that way to utilize the benefits of a digital signal to the trunk.

Fourthly, when did I say the P9 combo was in such drastic demand? Obviously less people will be inclined to purchase it since it has a higher price tag. It is called the law of demand, but I won't take the time to educate you on economics since I am sure a major store owner such as yourself is well versed in that area. However, if you look at the SQ competitors, more use the P9 combo than the 8053, and it is very popular in the SQ community.

Finally, if you were to mod the 8053 to bypass all processing, and do the same with the DEX P9, I bet you couldn't even tell the difference in sound.

All in all, you are correct about the daily driver comment. You do not really need the tuning capabilities of the P9 for daily driving. However, this gentleman is looking to compete, and has the $ to afford it. I would suggest finding a used combo, as it can be had for much less than MSRP. Purchasing the P9 over the Eclipse would in fact give him an advantage.

Now lets go over all these advantages.

The P9 has a 4 way crossover, while the Eclipse has 3 way and less crossover points and slopes. This is a major benefit if he chooses to run active.

The P9 has a dual 32 band eq, allowing him to fine tune his system more accurately. I don't care what you say, but some fine tuning with an eq is required to get the flatest response curve.

The P9 has 4 way time alignment, where as the Eclipse doesn't. This will help him if he decides to run a 3 way comp actively.

The P9 has DVD control, allowing him to expand his sytem to video by adding the 6 disk P9 DVD changer, which also utilizes a digital signal to the DEX P9.

The P9 combo stomps all over the 8053 in every area except for price. I am sure you will bring up the fact that the 8053 has 8V preouts, but that doesn't really matter since the P9 uses a digital signal to the trunk, essentially eliminating the need for such a high voltage since the distance from the DEQ to the amp is very short. There is no induced noise from the deck to the processor because of this digital signal, which is always a risk with RCAs.

So now tell me, other than price, how the Eclipse is better?

Chadxton

iTrader: (1)

So basically you have about 6 or 7 different decks to chose from. Take your pick.

Kool

iTrader: (1)

Please explain Dukk.