Phaze-Audio vs. Butler Tubeamp
Yankee
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
^ As usual we agree Dukk. And since we DO agree 90% of the time we are statistically the same... identical some would say 
Sometimes it seems like 1/4 of a decible difference is quite audible and sometimes a Db or 2 is quite inaudible... our hearing is a funny thing that way.
Sometimes it seems like 1/4 of a decible difference is quite audible and sometimes a Db or 2 is quite inaudible... our hearing is a funny thing that way.
500 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 884
I believe hearing no difference is what the low-end amplifier manufacturer in this industry been wanting to hear about their product for years....... Audiovox, Pyramid, Sentrek, MEI, Learjet, etc. and the mid to high-end manufacture trying to cut cost by using cheaper parts "sound alike parts" to fool some of the consumer and leave the good parts for their signature models.
The measurements available in the spec sheet of the amp are the most useless.... when it comes to sound! (not applies to SPL use) IMO Sound at the highest level..... its an art. Its not just only information or a melody of a song...... theres emotions, communication, atmosphere of the venue and what gives you that feel. some amp has it and some don't....... and there is no way to measure it other then with your own ears.
I have personally have tested many car amps and home amps in the pass.... For example: I have amp I get for evaluations from manufactures....... I put it in my sound room and didn't sound good right off... So I ran it for days to burn it in or to warm it up or whatever, I basically let it play all day and check it occasionally for sound changes. but still don't sound good. then I would take it out and put some other amps in and it would sound good right from the beginning.
About the ABX thing....... IMHO Its just not accurate enough! (cause it relies on memory of small details) You don't compare TV screens, or photos like that either right? To do it properly you need to play both amplifier side by side with one channel only. then reverse the amp to isolate the variable from the signal feed and the speaker difference. [img]smile.gif[/img]
[ December 02, 2005, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: SweetnLow91SC ]
The measurements available in the spec sheet of the amp are the most useless.... when it comes to sound! (not applies to SPL use) IMO Sound at the highest level..... its an art. Its not just only information or a melody of a song...... theres emotions, communication, atmosphere of the venue and what gives you that feel. some amp has it and some don't....... and there is no way to measure it other then with your own ears.
I have personally have tested many car amps and home amps in the pass.... For example: I have amp I get for evaluations from manufactures....... I put it in my sound room and didn't sound good right off... So I ran it for days to burn it in or to warm it up or whatever, I basically let it play all day and check it occasionally for sound changes. but still don't sound good. then I would take it out and put some other amps in and it would sound good right from the beginning.
About the ABX thing....... IMHO Its just not accurate enough! (cause it relies on memory of small details) You don't compare TV screens, or photos like that either right? To do it properly you need to play both amplifier side by side with one channel only. then reverse the amp to isolate the variable from the signal feed and the speaker difference. [img]smile.gif[/img]
[ December 02, 2005, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: SweetnLow91SC ]
Yankee
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
This discussion for some reason always becomes an emotional issue for some. Disagreeing with someone is fairly common in car audio, I suspect there are dozens of ways to get a car to sound 'just right' and the techniques used to build a 'world killer' often contradict another build philosophy.
This issue (HU, RCAs or amplifiers having a sound to them) somehow addresses some inner core belief structure (like a religion) and turns a dialog into a dogfight. If you have been around a while you will hear systems of world-class caliber with TRU, Zapco, Audison, Butler, MIT cable etc. in them, in the next lane you will hear a world-class caliber setup with MTX, Panasonic, Sony and Home Depot wire. You get there with a good design, and solid equipment choices. I do not like hearing the only thing to buy is Brand X because that is BS.
It is the build that gets you 90% of the way home. But the final 10% is equipment choice. So as usual we find ourselves arguing 90% of the time over 10% (capacitors, subwoofer SQ, wire and amp sound).
This issue (HU, RCAs or amplifiers having a sound to them) somehow addresses some inner core belief structure (like a religion) and turns a dialog into a dogfight. If you have been around a while you will hear systems of world-class caliber with TRU, Zapco, Audison, Butler, MIT cable etc. in them, in the next lane you will hear a world-class caliber setup with MTX, Panasonic, Sony and Home Depot wire. You get there with a good design, and solid equipment choices. I do not like hearing the only thing to buy is Brand X because that is BS.
It is the build that gets you 90% of the way home. But the final 10% is equipment choice. So as usual we find ourselves arguing 90% of the time over 10% (capacitors, subwoofer SQ, wire and amp sound).
500 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 870
When I first got into audio in the mid 70's, there was a guy named Tom Dewar that worked at Bleekers.
Every Tuesday night, he would do an A/B test (blind, and with indicator light) between an Advent clock radio, and a Harmon Kardon Citation amp/pre-amp during his "audio seminar".
These were driving a set of their best Tannoys.
The first few times I heard the test, I couldn't hear a difference, but after a few times (I was a stereo groupie) it became noticable that the HK set had a bit more depth, bass extension, and a tighter image. After I knew what I was hearing, I could pick the cheaper amp every time.
I am a firm believer that as far as sonic improvement, the amp is the least important item in the audio chain.
Speakers, setup, source, and processing, all play a much greater role.
Until you have perfected these, the differences between amps will be lost in the mud.
Every Tuesday night, he would do an A/B test (blind, and with indicator light) between an Advent clock radio, and a Harmon Kardon Citation amp/pre-amp during his "audio seminar".
These were driving a set of their best Tannoys.
The first few times I heard the test, I couldn't hear a difference, but after a few times (I was a stereo groupie) it became noticable that the HK set had a bit more depth, bass extension, and a tighter image. After I knew what I was hearing, I could pick the cheaper amp every time.
I am a firm believer that as far as sonic improvement, the amp is the least important item in the audio chain.
Speakers, setup, source, and processing, all play a much greater role.
Until you have perfected these, the differences between amps will be lost in the mud.
