again, H.P. is relative to the vehicle, for example a 25 hp gain in a 80 hp car would be very easily detected, the same amount in a car with 500hp would be much more difficult to feel. As with amplifiers, a 30 watt gain over a deck's amp is pretty easily detected, in a 1000 watt amp probably not. The same goes for the above mentioned a/c reference, in my sister's Kia Rio, that a/c acts like a brake, in my boss's CLK55 , you don't even know when it's on.

 

Originally posted by HAUNZ Acceptable to you maybe...i'll take the amp as close to 30V/us any day.
When I listen to the drums on "Amused to Death", the cannons on 1812, or other equally challenging passages, on an amp driven to it's limit, in a good system, it is quite easy to tell if the amp is up to the task.

Tonal differences are quite undetectable from amp to amp in lower volume tests these days...wasn't always that way. I used to be able to pick a Pioneer amp every time, blind.
There is more to listening than tone...Slew rate, rise time, switching distortion, IM distortion, peak current output, dynamic range, and stability under extreme loads (most speakers present extreme loads when asked to perform the impossible) all play a role in the perception of the event.

I'll spend on good power, cause I'm gonna push it to the limit and that's the only time I want it to "shine".

Put your mid-level amps up against...oh...some Phoenix M series amps, say..(can ya tell I'm old school?), and do a week to week comparison. If you know what you're listening for, it's not that hard....subtle perhaps, but the difference is clear.

 

Or put another way....a Reiki master, can detect a human hair, by touch, through 50 sheets of newsprint....I know I can't, but I don't discount that they can....training, practice, practice, practice.....

edited to say: "Sorry to interupt the thread on cold air intakes"

[ November 30, 2005, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: Starterwiz ]

 

Okay so you walk into a room or sit in a car and you listen to some music that say doesn't have the 'speed' or the 'attack' to it, you are going to say "Oh! That amp has a low slew rate!" Or are you going to say "Oh! That sub with it's heavy cone and non-progressive spider has a muddy sound!" or "Oh! That midbass must not be a (brand x) or have a poly cone, not a Kevlar cone or a phase plug since it doesn't have the response to keep up" or, or, or, or.... See what I'm getting at?

If you want to hear slew rate and how you perceive it's improvement/degradation to the music, that's what you'll hear. If you want to hear the quality of the cable and how it afftects the music, that's what you'll hear. If you want to hear how the sound dampening or material choice of the upholstery is affecting the music, that's what you'll hear. If, if, if.... It's whatever you 'want' to hear.

 

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slew rate and rise time are the same thing and are so good even in the ****tiest amps that you won't be able to differentiate between them and another amp with a higher rate... switching and intermodular distortion will also be so low in even the ****tiest amp that you won't be able to hear it.....

Stability only tells ya what load you can run... dynamic range and peak current are directly related... to power output before clip..

if you can tell the diff between ANY two amps you want, set at the same level, before clip... a guy named richard clark will gladly write you a check for $10K US if you can prove it to him in a scientific test...

Ill be waiting here holding my breath....

[ November 30, 2005, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Haunz ]

 

^^so true. Over the years I've come to realize that a great system can be had by the use of many different brands and components(the set up). All that really matters is if you like it. The similarities in the different brands are so close that it really is of no issue. Choose what you like and get going already.

 

I never said i could tell what aspect is the cause of the difference in perception....just that it IS possible to detect a difference. Moreso when the amps are driven into the dreaded clip zone.

I'll take a 30 watt Harmon Kardon over a 100 watt Samsung. Tell me why!

Sound, state of mind, preconception, all play a role.
Very hard to scientifically prove....like God...just cause you can't prove a thing yet, does not make it unreal.

 

Guess what Iam an atheist [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

 

If amps that do not measure the same sound the same...

1- why publish the specifications, heck why even measure them at all, if inaudible then they are relegated to engineering aids

2- sounds like the measurements don't have much value if you cant hear their effect

3- several amps have designed frequency deviations of 1 or 2 db between the frequency extremes, and this is evidently inaudible too.


The Butler design was very similar to numerous pro-audio preamps where the tubes affect was 'dialed' in with a ****. Basically a distortion generator. The Tube Driver Blue uses more of a standard tube preamp stage in the amp.