mike , i used schumacher as the driver because he is the best in the world, and we were assuming that the install was the best or optimum and, i never thought i'd hear more foolish reasoning from you of all people . dukk, if you use very hi end "proven" gear and have the most optimum install, and in the same vehicle not use hi end "proven" gear with the same optimized install, the system would be inferior to the higher end gear, maybe as you have stated it might be 95% as good, which you couldnt get me to believe for a minute, it still wouldnt be as good, and please dont come back with law of diminishing returns, its a simple question

 

Dave you are changing your wording. You have blatantly said that price=quality. Now you are using phrases such as 'high end' because reality is that price<>quality.

I think AVI has high end drivers.

They are not the most expensive drivers available on the market.

The conflict is yours, not mine.

And wtf is "proven" gear? I'd bet dollars to donuts that more IASCA finalists have had RF high end in their cars than AVI. I guess that makes, by your account, RF better than AVI? [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

Oh yeah - don't think for a minute that the R&D dollars for something like a F#1 processor are not into every $300 Alpine CD player, S-type woofer, and basic coaxial they sell...

 

i guess my main argument is that people dismiss products as not worth it due to cost, in my end of the business, retail obviously, is it not irresponsible to dismiss products and not give them a oppotrunity bases stricly on cost/ value basis, and to say at some point the law of diminishing returns has to be taked into consideration to me seems wrong, the value will be decided by the person using it. i find it interesting that the people trying to dismiss certain products have never used them. mike as you know i have used many of the "hi end" products in car audio, rane, audio control digital stuff, eton, ceratec, hell we used to custom build tube amps for cars at illusions, so my evaluations are always based on experience, never do i voice an opinion on gear ive never used, when i talk about f#1 its based on experience, and if it was not a good product , mike you of all people know that i would say it wasnt worth it. rarely does a product come along that blows me away, things like the phoenix gold cyclone, the soundstream/krell d/a converter, the tube amps we built, the epx2 stuff from way back, all cutting edge at the time and very exspensive. the f#1 gear is one of these types of products, very cutting edge, and very exspensive, but its a vaule to me for what it does, and the sound it helps to create, which gives it more value than virtually any other product available. it has no sound yet a sound all its own, which is better than anything ive ever used in car audio.

 

dukk, use your eyes and read more carefully, ive said a few times in this thread that not all exspensive gear is good, there is inexpensive gear that is good, just not as good as some more exspensive gear, im not sure how to make that any more clear to you. i try to use simple terms with you, like "proven gear" because logical ones are ineffective. adam i couldnt agree more but im not sure that some of the people would appreciate it, they have already convinced themselves before even using it that its not worth the price. i have never used a audison vrx amp, they are very expensive, and likely very good, but having never used or heard one i would never dismiss it as "not worth the price" without first hand use. i believe the people agruing the price/value side of this conversation have never used it or heard a pxah900, humorous to say the least. proven quality gear, lets see, alpine 7909, the denford cd player, audison vrx amplifiers, focal utopia speakers, and on the spl front dd woofers, kicker l7's, and so on, do you undestand now what i meant